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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: hosman321 on February 03, 2012, 05:11:05 am
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Hi everyone. :)
I am thinking about purchasing these doors. Not absolutely positive yet because they are expensive and I don't know how to tell how old they are. Something doesn't seem right about them to me and I can't pinpoint it. They don't have the usual rosehead nails and I don't really recognize the style of hardware as being American. Could they maybe be French or English? Does anyone think they are really circa 1750? Thanks for any advice!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/160642054405?_trksid=p5197.c0.m619#ht_500wt_1180
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Mmmm,,,not sure about it !! When were those round head screws put in ?? Look more English to me !! I take it that they were just told where they came from when they purchased them ?? I would question a bit more before buying !!
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They seem French or English the more I look at them. But I don't know enough to know any better. I wouldn't mind if they were French or English as long as they were from the 18th century. Thanks for the reply, mart!
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It would not be unusual for English items to be sold as American !! Thats what happened when all the imports were shipped here !! And there were lots of doors too,, it wasn`t just furniture !! Many dealers sold them as American to people that didn`t know better !! Or they said " I think its from" Or "could be from" to avoid returns and angry buyers !! Like going to a flea market today and seeing something you know was made 1930`s but seller`s great great great great grandmother brought it when crossing America in a covered wagon !! Not to dash your hopes but I would just question and research a bit before you believe the seller !!
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Great advice mart! That's why I come to all of you fine folks, I have a feeling the seller doesn't really know much. I think I will write jacon and ask him about the hardware, he knows so much more about that period than me. Thanks again.
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Hmmmmm, well, they could very well be American however, its hard to tell from pic's with all that paint if the hardware is actually 18th century. The door hinges appear to be 18th century "tulip" hinges, popular among PA german settlers. The question is though, are they hand wrought iron, impossible to tell from pics. The door knob/handle appears to be of a much later date.
A couple things to keep in mind about 18th century american hardware. First off, we were english citizens and two, colonists were PROHIBITED from setting up foundrys to cast brass, why? Economic was one reason, the brits wanted to sell finished brass goods to their colonies and then there were political reasons. Cannons are cast from brass & theres no telling where that could lead!
What all this means is, blacksmiths made everything from nails to hinges to anything that the local smith could produce with a forge and hammer. Almost ALL brass brass hardware was imported, mostly from england. Still, to most collectors original hardware is still a BIG DEAL whether imported or not. So, what we see today on pieces that have original hardware is, if its brass, its most likely imported, if it's wrought iron, its most likely made locally.
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Brass doesn't rust and I see some rust towards the bottoms. Could be from the screws I guess?
VERY nice looking doors!! The hardware is fab!
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Does anyone think they are really circa 1750?
They could be, they might not be, you really cant tell from these pics.
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It makes me a bit nervous that all the screws (the brass ones and the dome shaped ones) have the line directly in the middle of the screw. They aren't off-center at all. Does that make any difference? But in the 3rd to last picture, it does look like some sort of rose-head nail. I would be ok if they were made up to 1800. But I don't want them if they are some late Victorian repros or something.
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From what I see I don`t think they are repro`s but my opinion is that they are likely 1800`s doors rather than 1700`s !! But Jacon4 is a much better judge than I am !!
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As you know, I am no expert but.... If 18th century is important to you (and I know it is) then for that $$ I would want a good explanation as to how/why they came to that conclusion. Were they part of a remodel? are they mistaking 18th century for the 1800's? etc....
I'm with the others in thinking that they are likely later - primarily because there are very few 18th century buildings that remain in tact, never mind mid-18th C (no evidence just a general observation).
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I agree Oceans and the few that are intact would not likely have the doors replaced !! That would blow the reputation of any historical society !! I still think English 1800`s !!
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Yeah, I think Oceans right, very few 18th century buildings are still around. They are most likely going with 18th century because of those Tulip hinges. I'd say the tulip hinges are american.
http://www.janekatchercollection.com/html/chesthinges.html
http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/articles_archive/articles/aug05/sorber0805.htm
As you can see, the tulip hinges alone, if they are 18th century could be worth what they are asking for the entire door. Naturally thats a big IF there. One would have to examine the doors in person to know for sure.
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I would ask the seller as to how they arrived at that date. Looking at their other items, I see they somewhat specialize in vintage hardware.
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Yeah, i noticed that too, seller has alot of old hardware plus they are located in PA, a good sign. I would note that those tulip hinges remained popular all during the 18th century and are pretty rare, you find them mostly on PA. dower & blanket chests from that period.
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Thank you all for your responses. So, the consensus is pretty much that they could actually be 18th century but I can't really be sure unless they are seen in person? Too far away for me to see them and I wouldn't know what I was looking at anyways! I will write them and ask them a couple questions. I'll let ya'll know what they say. ;)
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LOL @ I wouldn't know what I was looking at anyways!
Yes, ask the seller why they think the doors are 18th century, do they have a return policy, etc. After all that & you still want them, offer 1/2 or 2/3s of what they are asking because shipping on something like that is not going to be cheap, trust me.
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I forgot to say thank you for the links, jacon! Absolutely amazing hardware. I found this latch. Based on their other listings, the sellers seem to be fairly knowledgeable about hardware. So, I tend to believe them that they think it is a later piece. Man, it would be really amazing if it were 18th century. It's still very nice considering the craftsmanship but I won't be bidding on it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Old-Wrought-Iron-Indian-Chief-Head-Feather-War-Bonnet-Suffolk-Thumb-Latch-yqz-/290665175874?pt=Architectural_Garden&hash=item43acfe9b42#ht_18982wt_1392
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Hosman,
Yeah, its virtually impossible to authenticate old objects with photo's alone, it's one of those is what it is kinda deals. To check out why this is, look at video in "Questions about maker of federal card table" in this forum and you'll see why personal inspection is really the only way to evaluate old objects.
It's the same for your doors as it is for almost any object. This is why, if one is not familar or cant examine in person, trust in what seller says is really all thats left, which is not ideal unless its a seller you trust.