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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: Snadeau on November 16, 2013, 08:15:18 am
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I bought this painting at a flea market in Richmond. I have searched for three months looking as far away as Latin America, Mexico, Sweden, Spain, and Cuba. The only person I have found that signs their name che is Che Guevara. The signature is a close match but perhaps not close enough. I've been told that Che painted but no one seems to know if any of his paintings have survived. The only people that would have knowledge of this are not talking...will not confirm or acknowledge his art...only state he was a revolutionary and revolutionary's don't have time to paint! Does anyone recognize this painting or the signature? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. The painting is old but not ancient, is not stretched, was nailed to a solid surface for painting, has some warping, and is on a burlap type canvas.
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signatures can vary...i,ve signed my name for 40 odd years...and i doubt if i,ve ever signed it the same way twice...but its close enough...
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I agree...it's even more difficult to sign with a paint brush and have the signature be a perfect match!
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I agree...it's even more difficult to sign with a paint brush and have the signature be a perfect match!
STOP!!...we,re jumping about like a jack in the box,stay on the other post... ;D
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Sorry, but this is the post I want up as it contains more info. So how do I get rid of the other post?
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you should be able to remove it...or at least all your posts below the topic post...just look in the right hand corner where it says modify remove...
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I tried that and I get a message that says I cannot delete my own messages in this forum (or something like that).
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oh well...
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Ask Talesofthesevenseas I think she is the only one who could remove the extra posts.
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yeah....she,s good at removing things...........
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Where are you located Snadeau ?? Still looking on this !!
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Is the town you bought this in Maine or was it Richmond Virginia ?? Did you ask when you bought it about its history or where it came from ?? Reason I ask is because there is or was one done in a similar style but different pic listed on ebay ?? Signature was the same !!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-PAINTING-THOUGHT-TO-BE-BY-CHE-GUEVARA-NEW-INFO-ON-CHE-AS-ARTIST-/301007390931?nma=true&si=K0jUV4ToN4MmIliaf6VdISeIicY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
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Thank you for your link, I'll check it further...now the plot thickens! I bought the piece in Richmond VA and the owner of the shop said they bought it from an estate sale but couldn't remember where or whose estate. I'm attaching a better photo of Che Guevara's signature from an official document rather than wiki-whatever! The signature on my painting and now the second painting are very close to Che Guevara's signature with the exception of the accent mark on the e. In the Spanish spelling, prior to 1961, the term che (when using it as a slang for friend, buddy) did have the e accented and the c was not capitalized as it was not a persons name. Che Guevara was given the nickname by Nico Lopez while in Mexico around 1954 (?). He officially added the term che to his legal name and started signing official documents che (not capitalized) with no accent on the e but always with an underscore under the h. I think what I need is to locate a photo of his artwork which I'm sure his family has but they will not confirm...I keep getting the "he was a revolutionary and revolutionaries do not have time to paint." I'll keep searching.
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The signatures on the art and the one you just posted have enough major differences to say it is not his !!
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Quite interesting,, the person that posted the one on ebay happens to be an artist in Marion, North Carolina !! The artwork you have as well as his is almost identical as far as the way its mounted,,right down to the nails,,signatures on both art pieces are almost identical yet does not match his known signatures !!
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Only about 300 miles between those two cities !! How likely would these occurances be ?? That two pieces of art by an obscure artist who cannot be verified if he indeed painted at all,,would show up within 300 miles of each other with one in the hands of an artist ?? And to top all that,,very little way to verify if these are his since there is no known work online to compare !! Assuming that Che`s artwork was done and is outside the U.S,,how would these get to one small area in the states ??
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Not so far fetched...the donkey painting you referred me to was purchased at a Goodwill store outside Atlanta, GA. Mine was purchased at a flea market in Richmond VA. There is another one out there somewhere because I found a question posted on a website about the value of a painting of Don Quixote on a horse signed che. There is another art forum where two (or three, I can't remember) people had paintings signed che and they were trying to find out who the artist che was (that was back in 2004-2009). No one responded. So it appears there are more che paintings out there and mine is just one of several. If Che's father had not stated that he (Che) was fond of painting, and if Che wasn't connected (through his own writing in letters to his family) to Don Quixote (not to mention it was his favorite book and was the first book printed in Cuba and given to the people free) I would scratch his name off the possibilities...but ....
As for signatures...here are more and honestly, none of them are identical! So I'm not ready to give up based on signatures...also keeping in mind the difference between a penned signature and one made with a paint brush.
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I am an artist and have painted over 30 years !! I can say that signing with a brush is easy and you do not change the basic shape of the letters !! Anyone can look at something I signed 20 years ago and something I write on paper and see that the signatures match by looking at the shape of the letters !!
239 miles between Marion, NC and Atlanta GA !! Any of the information you have is easily found online !!
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Yes, all of the information I have discovered was found on the internet. It's what I've learned since starting this search. Prior to purchasing this painting, I did not know who Che Guevara was. I'd seen his face on t-shirts back in the late 60's but I was not a part of the 60's revolution, rather I was too busy with trying to make a living and support two kids! What attracted me to this particular painting was the fact that it's an original piece of artwork, it's old, it's definitely Don Quixote, it's rather well done and it only cost me $26.33. I'm attaching a photo of the receipt. Unfortunately the receipt doesn't have the name of the flea market but my daughter lives in Richmond, I could ask her to get the name for me...if it were needed.
After purchasing the painting, I started the search for who the artist is/was. Before I invest real money in getting it restored and framed I want to know if it is worth the estimate ($500) otherwise I'll try to stretch and frame it myself and hang in the foyer. My painting is not for sale. I am not attempting to determine the value of the painting, I'm only looking to find the artist or someone who has other paintings signed che and might know who che is. I'm not convinced the artist is Che Guevara but through all my research I've found no one else anywhere in the world (at least not on the internet) that painted and signed their name che.
I appreciate your input but I don't agree with your opinion on signatures...the three photos of Che Guevara's signature are all very different...and I have more. Also, if Che Guevara is the artist, painting was something he did for pleasure...he didn't paint for a living nor did he ever sell any artwork. Like I said before, I believe the signature on my painting is close enough with the exception of the accent mark on the e. If you are 'alluding' to the possibility that my painting could be a forgery by someone who is attempting to pass the artwork off as Che Guevara's work, why would the artist use the accent mark on the e when che didn't? Whoever painted my painting was an artist within his own right, signed his name che with an accent on the e and my painting is not the only painting this person did. I can now confirm there are two. Both on the east coast. One framed in FL, purchased in Atlanta and the other purchased in Richmond, VA. People in the US move around a lot, they die, their heirs inherit their possessions and dispose of their possessions. I can easily understand how these two paintings ended up in flea market/Goodwill stores in Richmond and Atlanta. Why one was purchased by an artist? Because she appreciates art, liked the painting, thought the artist might be Che Guevara and believes the painting might be very valuable. Not exactly the direction I'm going in but understandable and not unremarkable if you ask me.
At any rate, like I've said before I'm interested in finding anyone who might recognize the painting, the artists signature, or the artist who did it.
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I am not disputing anything you have said !! But after seeing the price that the ebay seller asked and the BIN combined with his ebay ID (dogoodforusnow) which struck me as odd !! As well as the close proximity of the two pieces it occurred to me that one may have been salted and that both may have been done by the ebay seller looking to cash in on what would normally be an uncommon piece of art !! I have found no other work attributed to him but couldn`t get Leland Gallery to open so have no idea what they have. $500. is not an expensive piece of art,,I would suggest that you take your work to a gallery and get their opinion if the art is actually his or not !! That would give some credence to the one you have !! The ebay seller is not doing well,,no interest, no watchers, no bids !!
As to the accent mark,, that is also online that he ocassionally used it !!
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In my search for signatures, I have not found any reference to Che Guevara's use of the accented e nor have I found a signature of his with the e accented. Do you have a reference I could use to confirm?
If the painting were not old, I might understand your logic/reasoning. I took my painting to several art galleries and one museum. All said the same thing...do I have a provenance on the piece? My response...what's a provenance? No one at the galleries or museum recognized the style or signature (none of them suggested Che Guevara) and were not able to help. Since I purchased it at a flea market and the owner of the flea market doesn't remember whose estate they purchased it from and they do not keep records of their purchases or what they sell that pretty much shuts that door pretty tight!
I still don't understand how you got from an art piece found in a thrift store to someone 'salting' (whatever that means) these two paintings! Also, there are the other pieces out there (going back to 2004-2009) that I have not been able to track down.
All I know is that I want to solve this mystery, if possible, before I spend $500. If it is a Che Guevara painting it would be worth my spending the $500 to have it restored professionally and correctly. However, if the artist is not recognized in the field of art, it isn't worth $500 to restore but because I like the painting it is worth restoring and framing myself and it becomes a family heirloom. In searching for the artist, I am keeping a journal of each and every search, question, response, advise, suggestions, etc. it will all be typed up and attached to the painting when it is framed. I have correspondence from Spain, Sweden, Mexico, Argentina, and Cuba. I have an autographed book by a poet/author who wrote about Che Guevara who knows his wife and children. She would only confirm that she too had heard he painted but she did not know of his paintings (if there are any or where they are).
My search continues...perhaps I am chasing windmills!
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In my search for signatures, I have not found any reference to Che Guevara's use of the accented e nor have I found a signature of his with the e accented. Do you have a reference I could use to confirm?
If the painting were not old, I might understand your logic/reasoning. I took my painting to several art galleries and one museum. All said the same thing...do I have a provenance on the piece? My response...what's a provenance? No one at the galleries or museum recognized the style or signature (none of them suggested Che Guevara) and were not able to help. Since I purchased it at a flea market and the owner of the flea market doesn't remember whose estate they purchased it from and they do not keep records of their purchases or what they sell that pretty much shuts that door pretty tight!
I still don't understand how you got from an art piece found in a thrift store to someone 'salting' (whatever that means) these two paintings! Also, there are the other pieces out there (going back to 2004-2009) that I have not been able to track down.
All I know is that I want to solve this mystery, if possible, before I spend $500. If it is a Che Guevara painting it would be worth my spending the $500 to have it restored professionally and correctly. However, if the artist is not recognized in the field of art, it isn't worth $500 to restore but because I like the painting it is worth restoring and framing myself and it becomes a family heirloom. In searching for the artist, I am keeping a journal of each and every search, question, response, advise, suggestions, etc. it will all be typed up and attached to the painting when it is framed. I have correspondence from Spain, Sweden, Mexico, Argentina, and Cuba. I have an autographed book by a poet/author who wrote about Che Guevara who knows his wife and children. She would only confirm that she too had heard he painted but she did not know of his paintings (if there are any or where they are).
My search continues...perhaps I am chasing windmills!
Chasing Windmills..Mmm..... I think the words you are looking for are......as they would say in Spain...molinos de viento ;D
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Bigwull:
Grazie per il tuo commento su mulini a vento, a volte penso che sto girando su uno in una giomata molto ventosa!
Saluti
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Salting was and I think still is a common practice at auctions although not in this manner !! And I said that was my first thought !! That is where someone has an item that is real and some that are not !! The real one is sold,,other people look at it and of course there is discussion among the buyers,,later the fake/repro ones are sold and since they saw one good one,, the price for the repro`s goes way higher than it ever would have without that one sacrificial lamb !! The dealer does well on all !!
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Thank you for the explanation. Salting doesn't sound very nice, respectable nor legal. But I can assure you, in the case of my painting and the one in North Carolina...there is no salting (or peppering for that matter) involved. The donkey painting was framed at a shop in Ft Lauderdale, FL in 1973 and the painting has never been taken out of the frame since it was framed. How did it end up at a Goodwill store in Atlanta? Too many ways to list and all perfectly understandable and believable. Especially since most people living on the east coast have been to Florida at least once in their lifetimes! Why did an artist from Marion, NC buy it? Don't people, artist included, buy other peoples artwork if they like it? The seller of the donkey painting and I have joined in the search to find out who Che the artist is. If I could track down those other people who had paintings signed by someone named che I might be able to solve the mystery. I'm attaching a photo of the donkey painting in case this painting looks familiar to anyone.
Perhaps I should change my handle to 'the woman who chases windmills'!
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LOL !! Good luck !! I think the correct wording is "Chasing Rainbows" !! I wish you well in your search !!
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Thank you for the explanation. Salting doesn't sound very nice, respectable nor legal. But I can assure you, in the case of my painting and the one in North Carolina...there is no salting (or peppering for that matter) involved. The donkey painting was framed at a shop in Ft Lauderdale, FL in 1973 and the painting has never been taken out of the frame since it was framed. How did it end up at a Goodwill store in Atlanta? Too many ways to list and all perfectly understandable and believable. Especially since most people living on the east coast have been to Florida at least once in their lifetimes! Why did an artist from Marion, NC buy it? Don't people, artist included, buy other peoples artwork if they like it? The seller of the donkey painting and I have joined in the search to find out who Che the artist is. If I could track down those other people who had paintings signed by someone named che I might be able to solve the mystery. I'm attaching a photo of the donkey painting in case this painting looks familiar to anyone.
Perhaps I should change my handle to 'the woman who chases windmills'!
Noooooooooo!!....Don Quixote,Tilted at Windmills....becaus e he thought they were Giants....
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Ok mart and bigwull...If Don Quixote had an old painting signed by an artist named che...he'd be chasing windmills too! Chasing windmills usually means chasing something that doesn't exist...kind of like chasing a ghost...kinda like chasing che!
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LOL !! I have never heard of "chasing windmills",, here in the south "chasing rainbows" means the same thing !!
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If you have,nt read Don Quixote,..by Cervantes,..pronounced Kayhoty...then thats why You have,nt heard the saying Mart..
The expression “chasing windmills” is an example of a mixed metaphor and is not really correct.
The 2 mixed expressions are:
“Chasing rainbows” = going after or seeking something nearly impossible to obtain.
“He quit his job and abandoned his family. Then he took off for Hollywood hoping to become a movie star. But he’s just chasing rainbows.”
“tilting at windmills” = fighting imaginary enemies or confronting imaginary problems. (origin: Don Quixote).
“That country spends 50% of its GNP on armaments fearing an invasion by one of its neighbors. But it’s basically just tilting at windmills.
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Oh my goodness...not that my goodness has much ado about all this...
One way of explaining the way in which I am using the expression 'chasing windmills' (mixed metaphor or not, used correctly or not) is...I have something right in front of me (the painting) but at the same time, it is just out of reach (since I can't find anything about the artist named che), hence I am constantly chasing che (but since it's a portrait of Don Quixote) I feel it is more appropriate to use the expression 'chasing windmills' (see the connection?)...in my case I am not chasing rainbows. The expression tilting at windmills is used in the story of Don Quixote as a way of saying Don Quixote was tilting/jousting (attacking) the windmills he thought were giant enemies. I, on the other hand, do not have visions of grandeur (Don Quixote did) nor am I attacking anything! I am simply chasing windmills! Right or wrong, proper or not, I don't much care...it suits me just fine and conveys my quest!
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..this is a classic case ...of.....i,ve been there, done that, read the book, seen the film,....and i,m still no further forward.....or maybe like the Moody,s....searching for the Lost Chord..... ;D .
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Getting too deep for me !! ;D
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Getting too deep for me !! ;D
...you were never into this album..... ;D
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Oh My !! Yes it is !! Like you,, even though the 60`s was my era,,my life was a tame one !! Just not my cup of tea !!Now if it could be done on horseback,,I probably did it !! But that was as wild as I got !!
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I am of the belief.that this painting will become,to you.... like an itch to the elbow of a one armed man.... ::)
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Oh My !! Yes it is !! Like you,, even though the 60`s was my era,,my life was a tame one !! Just not my cup of tea !!Now if it could be done on horseback,,I probably did it !! But that was as wild as I got !!
well only horse i was ever on was a donkey...and that was,nt much fun...as it kept trying to bite me... ;D..oops i tell a lie..i was on one at the carnival.....but it was made of wood.....i have eaten them though...they are a bit chewy..but it made a guid stew...
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if you can scratch your left elbow with your left hand,....then there,s something far wrong with you... ;D
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San Antonio ?? I am in NE Texas !! I had to laugh at the flying reference !! I have hit the ground a few times but was only thrown once !! Still have six hay burners !! Only jumping I do is creeks and ditches !! Lived in Mesquite my first 21 years within spitting distance of the rodeo !! Its a little bigger now than when I was there back in the dark ages !!
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Well if you ride donkeys you must know che! He rode them too! You holding out on me?
I'm going to ignore your choice of stew! :o
I'll buy you a bendable back scratcher...my brother scratches his right elbow (and anything else on his right side) with his right hand with one! Works like a charm! ???
Know che..Mmm..I was thinking more along the lines of Sancho Panza...for as you will no doubt know....behind every great man...there is a better one...waiting to catch him when he falls... ;D
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My how small the world really is...my parents lived in San Antonio from 1966 to 2011 (when they both passed away). I lived there from 1966-1968 and again from 1970-1973. The highlight of my few years in SA were Fiesta week and the annual rodeo. It only took that one toss and I was done...I still love horses and thoroughly enjoy watching my daughter and granddaughter ride but getting back up in the saddle...nope! My neck still hurts!
Behind every good man is a good woman holding a 45!
not in my country...owning a hand gun is Illegal....and anyway..a wooden rolling pin can do a lot of damage if its bounced off a noggin... ;D
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My how small the world really is...my parents lived in San Antonio from 1966 to 2011 (when they both passed away). I lived there from 1966-1968 and again from 1970-1973. The highlight of my few years in SA were Fiesta week and the annual rodeo. It only took that one toss and I was done...I still love horses and thoroughly enjoy watching my daughter and granddaughter ride but getting back up in the saddle...nope! My neck still hurts!
Behind every good man is a good woman holding a 45!
That last sentence surely defines a Texas woman !! LOL !!
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My how small the world really is...my parents lived in San Antonio from 1966 to 2011 (when they both passed away). I lived there from 1966-1968 and again from 1970-1973. The highlight of my few years in SA were Fiesta week and the annual rodeo. It only took that one toss and I was done...I still love horses and thoroughly enjoy watching my daughter and granddaughter ride but getting back up in the saddle...nope! My neck still hurts!
Behind every good man is a good woman holding a 45!
That last sentence surely defines a Texas woman !! LOL !!
any Texan woman i,ve met...did,nt need a 45....present company excepted..... ;D
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LOL !! Well we are not all built like John Wayne !!
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LOL !! Well we are not all built like John Wayne !!
yes i know....you,re a petite 112lbs ..0r there abouts.... ;D
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LOL !! Don`t forget 5'1" !! Would have to go on a diet if I was three feet tall and 112lbs !! Think I lost a little weight over the summer !! Maybe 108lbs !! I will gain it back when I have to stay inside this winter !!
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had you been 5ft 2...with eyes o,blue,........and hair a golden yellow,...a figure so neat as quite petite....... ;D
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Well, I used to be a blond !! Back in my younger days !! The older I got,,the more the Irish red came out !! Still has a lot of red amongst the brown and a few gray hairs !! Not many,, but a few popping up !!
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Well, I used to be a blond !! Back in my younger days !! The older I got,,the more the Irish red came out !! Still has a lot of red amongst the brown and a few gray hairs !! Not many,, but a few popping up !!
And its one of the few things about getting older..that does,nt hurt a bit.... :)
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I finally found Che's signature with the accent mark (thanks to a fellow researcher)! Here it is...
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So I am not sure if this thread is monitored anymore but I thought I would bring to light that there is another Don Quixote painting with a Che signature. This one, I acquired about 5 years ago at a Thrift store in Kitchener Ontario Canada. Quite some distance from where the other ones were found. This one is painted on a wooden board, and has a very similar frame to one of the other ones Ive seen here. Another interesting note is this one had a little note written on the back. I believe it is Polish. I have had a few people try to translate but the handwriting has made it difficult. I will attach photos.
Figured I would add another piece to this interesting puzzle of "who is the painter Che?".
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Here are the photos
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wonderroom, that is a neat looking painting, thanks for posting it.
You need to check it out, ….. cause it doesn’t look to be painted by an amateur.
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Yes this is an old post but glad to have additional information on it !!
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I agree with cogar's observation that it doesn't look amateurish at all.
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I have two with this same signature., One I bought at a thrift store in St. Pete Florida in 1979 (the three bulls) and the other one online in 2013. Don Quixote is an oil painting and framed in Glendale NY in the sixties. The bulls are pencil on cloth with mistakes. I have found a number of early Che signatures with accents on different documents. Also there are two known pencil drawings he made. He was in Miami and Fort Lauderdale in the fifties (he stowed away on a plane) and could have painted then or, in 1955 he was a photographer for the Mexican Gov't at the Pan Am games and he has made many references to being an artist.
He sold paintings of Asclepius (his letter to his mother) at a stopover on his second motorcycle trip through South America. Were they his? I don't know.
The stretcher on the bulls is made in Mexico.
I have been reading and looking for answers since 1979
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I have my own interpretation of the donkey painting being sold on Ebay by 'dogoodforusnow' There is an iconic photograph in a lot of books about che of his little sister riding a donkey that allegedly was a family framed photo. His sister died a young age and had a great effect on che. I think the star above the donkey is a symbolic tribute to his sister.
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Sorry , I relied on my memory. the picture of the donkey had che with his sister on the donkey. the Ebay post is still up. Just search the words, che guevara donkey painting
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I looked at Guevara but didn`t find anything that made me think they were his !! Will have to look closer !!
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lol, flea market sellers are often professional dealers dressed in disguise.
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I know this is forward four years from the last post but may I join in the mysterious Che` signature? I have this piece that a friend of mine bought (can't remember where) and he thinks this is also a Che Guevara. I searched and only in this forum do I see that he (Che) may have actually painted?
Here's the painting.
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Here are the photos
Google translates this as "for Stanisław Różański
I always have it, but they don't recognize me"