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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: ironlord1963 on January 29, 2014, 08:14:15 pm
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I got some good news at work the other day, For those who remember about a year ago we had a very old Shan written document donated to us, I posted it and the manager pulled the Auction and wanted to find a professional to look at it. Well after sitting in the office for a year, they ask me today can I post it. So I think Saturday I will be posting it. For those who are new and those who don't exactly remember I will post the pics I have of it. I have research a bit more and will add that later. For now here I hope is my crown jewel for this year at work. Oh yea if anyone can or knows who can read old shan let me know. Have a great day.
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Did you ever find out any more about it !! Hope it does well for you !!
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Sort of found out more, but it seems the opinions vary, I did have two people date it to late 1600's but a professor in London Though 1940's, but I still think it is older then that. It is for sure a form of Shan language, one person pinpointed to a certain area, and did claim it had to be over 200 years old base on that version of shan, There are many who have suggested this version and that but have not got that pin down. It appears to be a Buddhist Story as most seem to have concluded, but overall nothing specific. We have a few waiting for it to be posted two want to donate to a museum, and the University of Washington Language dept, sent me a email with intrest in buying I have not heard back on that yet. However come Sat. I am going to post it with what vague information I have and see what happen.
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http://www.burmalibrary.org/show.php?cat=1123
I wonder if this sight could help you in some way.
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Welcome back ironlord1963! Glad to see you!
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Post a link so we can watch the sale !!
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Thanks Greenacres did not find that one yet, looks like a good one. Oh yea I will for sure post the link and we can see what happens. Management wants to start at $500.00, so guess we will see if it is worth that. Thanks KC Good to be out from the rock, I tend to hide now and then. Sorry I have been missing all the fun.
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Doesn't look particularly old to me, just in poor condition.
Who donated it ?
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Maybe the pictures don't reflect the age much, I have more that may help to show the old Appearance of the item, I see it a lot so I may be jaded to the look of it age. But like I mentioned before we are really unsure of the age. The fact that it is written on Jae Sa, or a kind of pulp paper, and written in a old Shan Script that I have yet to find many who can even make out some of the word are the most solid clues I have yet, also note the Cloth wrap binding, which I was told was most likely Tais cloth. unsure of the exact meaning of this, someone peg that area and mentioned that they are known for their cloth. Any one just has to see this in person to feel the age. As for who donated it, wish I knew would have sure saved me a few hours of trying to research it. Being I work at Goodwill we don't usually know who donates these items to use. I will try and add more about it as I learn it. I did get a email off to the site greenacres suggested and got a email back and they are forwarding it to many who may know a bit more.
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Some of the ink / writing appears very clear and crisp when looking at the condition of the leaves themselves. They look to have been damp at some point and subjected to some nasty conditions and yet the writing looks as though it were written yesterday. Particularly the last page where the writing finished.
The transverse tear on the fourth image down also seems to reveal a more recently produced paper stock.
Is Jae Sa the correct term ?
Paper production really began to change in the West in the 19th century but paper like this was still produced, particular in the Far East
One of those things that needs to be handled to be certain.
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I remember this one, I'm glad your back just in time for us to watch what happens. Keep us posted please!
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Got someone to translate some of the text. If I can figure out what Year Moeng-Kaue it I may be able to pin point the year.
Here is some of the lines that was translated.
Phenomenon (Dharma), the doctrine of Buddha,
This binding of
TSAU SU-THON.
The donors named Mae Ae-kong,
(from) the village, Sau-pit-kau-ya,
in company with sons and daughters,
who’s named Ai-saeng,
daughter-in law, named Ae-khaeng,
daughter, named Paeng-kong,
son-in-law, Sarng-ling-ta,
uncle, Nwam-ma-wan,
their family and inmate,
made ready
in the year (little era) 1309 month 12.
Poured ceremonial water to pray.
let it be the Gem Bridge,
and lead us, the generous
family and members of our family
let us be meet and see
the Gem and the Golden Ceremony of
the Lord God Arimiteya, the Diamond Lord,
the Peak of Nirvana
surely, indeed, please. Oh, my good deeds.
I, Tsanta, the writer,
in the year Moeng-kaue (of Tai 60 years cycle),
completed writing
at the time, eight o’clock in the morning.
The hand writing, too
were not so good.
All in all together
were 103, (pages?) Sir, you, everybody.
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Year 1309 of the little era would be about 1947 here. The era started circa 638-639 anno domini, so 639 is generally accepted as year 1.
" in the year Moeng-kaue (of Tai 60 years cycle) " refers to the calendar cycle similar to the Chinese animal years so you can't date it from that alone really.
Just add a little more to this. The year 2000 as we refer to it corresponded with the following years in their respective calendars
Year 5101 in the Kaliyuga
Year 2543 in the Buddhist Era of the Thai solar calendar
Year 2057 in the Bikram Samvat
Year 1922 in the Saka calendar
Year 1921 of the Vedanga Jyotisa calendar
Year 1407 in the Bengali calendar
Year 1362 in the Burmese Calendar
Year 514 in the Gaurabda calendar;
Year 1176 in the Malayalam calendar or Kolla Varsham calendar.
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Cool Thanks for that, information, so it appears, it would be 1947. Too bad I did not get this message a bit earlier, I posted it today at work, I did add the comment that the other person said when they claimed it to me 1947 in the post, but I left it up in the air. But any serious bidder will know this I hope. We started it a $500.00, hope that is not too high, Management wanted me to put a reserve on it at $500.00, but I don't like reserve prices, If that is the lowest we want then start it there is my philosophy. Thanks again for that information. I any one wants to follow it the link is below.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Burma-Shan-Language-Buddist-Document-Book-Unknown-Cir-Content-/400657281006?pt=Antiquarian_Collectible&hash=item5d4908efee
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Hey those are only educated guesses from a couple of images and the translation you gave us - so hopefully that's right.
Don't want to be ridiculing some ancient Buddhist document ! :o
I hope i'm wrong and it's worth thousands.
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Hey Ironlord,, just clicked on that link and one of your pics is not showing up, it the main listing pic !! Said image not available,, others are there though !!
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I got the pic, unsure of what is up with that. Thanks for looking I keep my eye posted.
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The picture works for me.
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I was going to fix the post tomorrow at work but it appears to have a bid already. Guess someone thinks it is worth the starting price.
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You might want to put an additional statement on it. If the year is that far off that could get sticky.
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Someone bidding is great news. You've described it as best you can and left it for the buyer to decide. Caveat emptor and all that.
Many watchers ?
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Yes now it is between me and my conscious, I did state the date is unknown, and even mentioned the date of 1947 being a possibility. It was after I posted it, that Ipcress decided to burst my fantasy bubble :P ;D I will ask the management what they think tomorrow and let them decide. You can always add a comment but it falls the bottom and no one reads any additional comments, The only way to be a trooper about it is to end the listing and rewrite it, but now Ebay charges you to do this when a bid has been placed.
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You could pull the auction then put it back up again with the corrected information.
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Put it all in the managements lap tomorrow. My past experience is if something goes wrong the manager will throw you under the bus for it. Reputation can do a lot of harm.
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Yes now it is between me and my conscious, I did state the date is unknown, and even mentioned the date of 1947 being a possibility. It was after I posted it, that Ipcress decided to burst my fantasy bubble :P ;D I will ask the management what they think tomorrow and let them decide. You can always add a comment but it falls the bottom and no one reads any additional comments, The only way to be a trooper about it is to end the listing and rewrite it, but now Ebay charges you to do this when a bid has been placed.
Hey ! It wasn't just me who said 1940's ;)
I think you've given potential buyers enough information. You haven't stated a date as fact, you listed opinions of those you've asked during your research ( which you've also explained ) and the pictures cannot be faulted.
You can always contact the bidder(s) and verify they have read the entire listing.
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I have often contacted the bidder at auction end to make sure they knew what they were buying !! Never had one bail on an item and usually they said they appreciated a more personal contact !! If by chance they did not read and understand it all,, its no biggie to refund if they paid already then redo the description and relist, or go to second chance option if there are others bidders !!