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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: jacon4 on August 02, 2016, 08:33:07 am
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Well, coming up this month, Aug 14-15, Skinner is having their Americana sale, this little guy caught my eye, incredible survivor, it appears to be all there! which is remarkable for a late 17th century american table, probably about 1680. Sale estimate is 20-50k which means, they have no idea what the value is. Joined riven oak table with drawer.
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Two board top or is that a crack ??
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Looks like a crack to me. Since it's riven (split) oak, top is more than likely 2 or 3 boards, a single board of riven oak to produce a 19 or 20 inch wide board, the tree would need to be in the 6-7 foot diameter range. Pretty big tree, way to big to rive by a single man. To rive a tree, you take say 4 foot long log, split it in half, then split (rive) pie shaped pieces off each half along the radial plane of the log.
https://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/theres-oak-then-theres-riven-oak/
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Not a good top pic !! Can`t see any additional boards !!
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Agrees pic is not the best and, there is only 1 which is odd for what they are asking for it. Condition report says "top with two shrinkage cracks, left front leg cat-scratched, losses to ring-turnings on legs. "
Here is link to table on Skinner website
http://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2922M/lots/39
Nevermind all that above, top is pine which makes sense so probably started out as a single board. Mart was leading me down the primrose path there, forget about the boards! it's the form that matters!
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Ha!! I would never do that Jacon4 !! I was just thinking that the skirt looks a bit odd for that time period !!
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Reaches for my BAM! stick! That front apron it looks like is a single piece of wood, pinned on each side into leg and is consistent with the period. It doesn't say but that drawer should be side hung, odd that there is only one photo of this table.
I just wrote to Skinner, why the single pic & what's up with that drawer. I know someone who is attending auction so I'll get a first person review but dang, $50,000. for a table and no pic's, what's up with that.
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From what I see its a single board top with a crack !!
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Yep, if it's white pine, probably a single board top that has split. I have an 1750 cherry table of similar form, it has a split that someone repaired along the way. Those breadboard ends that are a feature of this form and were installed originally to keep that wide board from warping (which it does quite well) are what causes splits in single board tops. It's not a big deal and rather easy restoration.
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Have you heard back on the additional pics ?? It is odd that only one pic is available at that price !! I do not see $50K in it !!
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Nope, nuttin yet. There is still a couple weeks until sale, sometimes they release more pics later as getting it online NOW is primary focus. Well, 50k may not be the number UNLESS this table checks out, if it does pass muster though, that number could be low. We shall see, that drawer construction will be a big point among those that have an interest as well as a big pocketbook.
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Very cool table. I've read that the Victorians loved the 17th century for furniture, and I can see why. Out of my financial wheelhouse, though. I could get a Belter 3-piece parlor set for that! ;D ;D ;D
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Very cool table. I've read that the Victorians loved the 17th century for furniture, and I can see why. Out of my financial wheelhouse, though. I could get a Belter 3-piece parlor set for that! ;D ;D ;D
LOL !! And I could live comfortably till this time next summer on that !!
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Yeah, I hear you, thing is, anytime PILGRIM furniture is mentioned in the American context, it draws A LOT of interest, a lot of fakes as well! It's just so rare that it even comes to market that interest in the object is understandable. While we wait for skinner, pics below of pilgrim tables of similar form and age at the MET
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And another, would not let me single post both tables
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Beautiful!!
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Yeah, it is in a way. Although quite chunky in appearance, there is a charming quality to this furniture. No nails, no machines of any kind, just a straight forward working of trees with simple hand tools into furniture.
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Meanwhile, I am working on this table like a madman however, Skinner is absolutely no help at all. Calling them now and talking with a 20 something year old art history major who is almost as lost as the old woman on that chair thread! It's not her fault really, she has no power or influence at skinner and she doesn't know when additional pics or replies to my inquiry will be available.
Here is my latest research that only me & a high end dealer that is attending this auction know, this table is in Nuttings furniture treasury, plate # 882 , it was in the "Fuessenich" collection when Nutting photographed it in 1928. According to Nutting, the turnings on the legs suggest an earlier period, 1660. The question is and remains, what's the deal on the top & drawer? are they original or not? If not, this table would be in the 1-3k range in todays market, a long way from the sale estimate.
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Wallace Nutting,, really ?? Same table ?? Did they say anything about additional photos ?? Seems strange that at that price they chose that pic to advertise with !! It does not help the sale !!
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Yeah, i hear you. No, the person you talk to on phone doesn't know anything. They have an online only americana auction this weekend and still no catalog, guesses they are in panic mode trying to deal with that and get it online.
Yep, same table, i am 99% sure. Skinner doesn't know it was in a famous collectors collection, doesnt know it's in Nuttings book, the list of things Skinner does not know is LARGE!
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Let me know when the table is selling !! This could be interesting !! You and the dealer are keeping your mouth shut this time aren`t you ?? Or are you thinking about buying this table if "not original " ?? Any idea about the maker ??
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Well, people that are into this type of object have done research as well and, if top and drawer are not original, many will drop out because 90% or more of it's value will go POOF! Looks like i am stuck waiting on dealer to make a site visit next week during preview to see where i stand. If everything is "right" on this table, it's gonna go for big dollars, end of story. If things are "wrong" however, i will still be in the running. At this level, no one pays the slightest bit of attention to what an auction house says, everyone already knows, THEY DON'T KNOW! An on site person to person visit with the object is absolutely required.
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I have to agree, for that expected sell price they aren't being very forthcoming...so I am guessing they may be backtracking and doing a little research themselves. Otherwise they would have enough pictures to show a splinter on it.
Do like the style!
I am curious if you are going for this one as well... Inquiring minds want to know! BAM!!
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I have to agree, for that expected sell price they aren't being very forthcoming..
Well, you know, Skinner has been in the game a long time, they know the drill. At this point their main focus is to create BUZZ, get people interested and get them in the door. They have quite a few other early american pieces in this sale, glass, metal, ladies pocketbooks, more furniture, bla bla bla that came from a serious collector. They obviously THINK this table is special and, it maybe but, maybe not too. Sale is still 10 days away, long time in their type biz these days, plenty of time to add pics and reply to inquiries. Besides, they know no one is going to drop 50k on a small table without an in person examination. My only chance is if there are structural issues with the table, like a replaced top for instance however, if it is what skinner thinks it is, then it's gonna go wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyy outa my price range.
Perhaps Skinner could interest you in a 1766 flame stitched ladies pocketbook? BAM!
http://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2922M/lots?start=0&display=list&sort_lot=1&view=90
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If Skinner is wrong about this table, look at what a similar form pilgrim table went for 2 years ago that had a replaced top, $1968. Quite a ways from 50k if you know what i mean. Condition matters in old furniture.
http://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2712M/lots/1106
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On the other hand, if everything checks out and the table is what Skinner HOPES it is, then the number is going to be big, like this one at Pook a few years ago that went for 25k.
http://www.pookandpook.com/cat/2007-04-21/519
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Alrighty then, just got an email back from skinner, yes, the drawer is side hung. "Yes, the drawer on this table is side hung.
Best,
Chris
So that indicates the drawer is probably original. If the top is as well, this table will go for big numbers.
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So: out of your wheelhouse in that case? Please let us know what it goes for, just for curiosity's sake.
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Well, there is still hope, the top but hey, at this point it's looking like this object is the real deal which means, old dad here is dead as a door nail. Yeah, i'll post the number when it's sold, there are several other early american pieces in this sale, early joined stools, that i may take a shot at.
LOL, i forwarded the email to dealer who is going next week for preview, here is the reply back
"THAT'S IT???? NO PHOTOS?? Anyway Chris has lied to me in the past...not my favorite person."
HOPE SPRINGS ETERNAL?
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Photo's
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3 more
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Okey Dokey, I came, I saw, I got the crap beat outa me! and the sale hasn't even started yet! It'll open at 15k, zoom into the 30s or so before slowing down and settle at 43k with BP i predict. What's your estimate? winner gets a Karma from everybody who predicts!
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45K with bp
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This table could very well be 1660, that is only 51 years after the first english settlers landed at Jamestown Va. in 1609, DAMN! incredible piece of early americana, it should probably be in a museum.
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Is there any kind of provenance with this table ?? Or did someone just dig it out of the barn ?? Wish they had pics of the underside !!
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Jacon4, in Reply #30, 2nd picture, …. is there any particular reason why the back panel of the drawer was “beveled”?
And if it truly is a circa 1660 table then my sale estimate is $62K. 8) ::)
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Thats the underside of the drawer,, I meant the table !! Where the legs attach !! Something just bugs me about the table !!
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Is there any kind of provenance with this table ?? Or did someone just dig it out of the barn ??
lol @ barn, yes, there is provenance but, if i am correct about plate #882, there are issues there. It could be the present owners purchased it from Fuessenich in the 1920s.
Jacon4, in Reply #30, 2nd picture, …. is there any particular reason why the back panel of the drawer was “beveled”?
Yeah, i noticed that to and i can't think why you would do that on purpose. It could be that when riving oak, it doesn't always split where you want it to and instead of tossing that board, builder used it there. Pure speculation on my part.
Something just bugs me about the table !!
Nevermind all that old woman, just make your estimate & move along! reaches for my BAM! stick!
Bottom line? After looking at pic's, i am 99% sure this table is right as rain, the thickness of the top, drawer sides, the drawer construction, the front apron, the crease moulding on side/back rails, it's all correct and american. It is clearly the earliest american table i have ever seen and almost unreal that it has survived for 356 years. I also have no idea what this little guy will sell for but one thing is certain, it's the star in this sale for sure.
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I'm a guessin' $47,000.
I made the mistake of looking through the Skinner auction link that you posted. Spent too much time looking as usual! LOL
I really like that "Paint Decorated Bureau".
http://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2922M/lots/306 (http://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2922M/lots/306)
The auction also has some interesting tramp art!
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I looked for that pic but couldn`t find it anywhere !! Guess I should buy the book !! OK !! This old woman will say if correct as you think,, $57.K !! KC took my original thought of $47. so I will up it ten !!
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You are not going to find the #882 plate online, they want you to buy the book! Wake up old woman, it's 2016, not 1916! BAM! I'll take a pic of plate 882 with my phone cam & post in awhile. You realise Nutting's furniture treasury is considered the bible for american furniture and EVERYONE that talks about old furniture is required to have one? This is EXACTLY what Sam was talkin about back in the day! Texan's don't know jack about furniture!
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Here you go Mart, just for you, plate 882
Hmmmm, it's sideways, if i click it, it's right side up, weird
OK, it's all better now
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KC, why not register for the sale? Easy to do, couple clicks and BAM! you're in. It might go cheap, you can never tell though with painted pieces.
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Jacon4,, look at the length of the top in Nuttings pic and then compare to the online pic !! I wondered why here was not one straight on pic !! All are on an angle !! Look different to you ??
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Yeah, it looks different but, i don't think that is definitive. Nutting pic is 1920 when cameras were rather primitive, no dimensions were given either. Take the pics i posted here that Skinner sent, they look MUCH different on my computer than they do on forum. Much sharper, a lot more detail, color is totally different,
bla bla bla.
Bottom line is, the apron is an exact match, ditto the legs and, when i enlarged the nutting pic the wooden pins on the apron are in the exact same location as skinner table, also the description in nutting says oak with pine top, exactly like skinners. It has already been suggested by others that the skinner table was made in same shop as nutting table and there are 2 tables. I have rejected that argument because, the idea that there are 2 tables built in 1660 by the same shop that survived and are as close as these doesn't make sense to me, the wood pins in the exact same location confirmed for me that these 2 pics are of the same table. Naturally, i could be wrong but i think it is the same table.
BTW, the person arguing for 2 tables was concerned about the feet, they argued that in nutting pic, feet are much smaller which is true however, when you blow up the nutting pic there is a white cloth background table is sitting on and i conclude that it's the ruffles in the cloth that make the feet appear smaller.
In any event, it's all academic at this point, i got about as much chance winning this table as i do winning the lottery tonight!
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But I see no distortion in the rest of the table !! And I would not dispute the date !! But sure looks like a different top !! Perhaps Skinner thought so too !! By using the angled pics it would be difficult to tell !! Even if the high end buyers compared the two,, most would be looking at the finer details like you did !! And there is little to compare the two tops with !! Especially after the three hundred years of use !!
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Yeah, it looks different but it isn't different, lol, i would bet a considerable sum both pics are of same table. The nuttin pic was taken in 1920 and by today's standards, it's a crummy pic and quite a lot of distortion. Look at wooden pull on nutting, you can't tell anything that would be helpful and when you enlarge, it just gets worse. Ditto the back stretcher on left hand side, in skinner pic there is a chunk of wood that is missing, blow up nutting and it's not definitive. This is the kind of crap old furniture people deal with ALL THE TIME! not definitive!
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I am still not convinced that top wasn`t replaced at some point in the next century !! Not that my opinion means much !! Still am curious about it !! I have looked at many old photographs from that era and have never seen that kind of distortion in any of them !! Occasionally some in the backgrounds but not in the primary focus !! And Nutting was an expert photographer !!
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And Nutting was an expert photographer !!
Yes he was, during his life he was known more for his photographs however, many of these photo's in treasury were shot at the home of the person who owned the piece which makes a big difference. Is pretty sure nutting did the best he could with what he had to work with but, still a lot to be desired.
Another point to consider, in treasury explanatory or foreword nutting writes " About five hundred collectors are represented from twenty seven states. Thanks are extended, most gratefully, to those who have contributed pictures which the author did not make.............."
Bottom line? we do not know in fact who took photo or when photo was taken of plate # 882........
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I am still not convinced that top wasn`t replaced at some point in the next century !!
I hope you are right! cuz that would put old dad back in the running to win this piece. Alas, from where i am sitting, this skinner table looks as pure as can be, it's the best example of it's form i have ever seen, bar none and, also the earliest. The in person report I'll get next week will probably drive a stake through the heart of any notion i have of winning this piece but hey, it's all i got at this point.
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Well, i spoke with someone who examined the table yesterday and according to them "it walks & talks, stunning, absolutely magnificent living piece of early americana, it's perfect". I am glad it is, even though i have zero chance of owning it. It's very rare to see such an early piece as intact and complete as this table is. Lots of high end dealers and scholars examining this piece but no one had a clue what it will sell for this Sunday and none were offering what their budget was. We will know in 48 hrs.
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Still....it is exciting. The dream and the hunt is mostly what it is all about! :)
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Yeah i guess but, wasn't there someone on this board who claimed this table had a replaced top and that i was still in the running? I am not going to mention any names but the initials were MARTHA!!! Reaches for my bam stick. Pic's do not do the piece justice, neither the catalog nor the pic's skinner sent, according to person who actually examined it.
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and according to them "it walks & talks, stunning, absolutely magnificent living piece of early americana, it's perfect".
Oh, my, my, .... can I up my guess of its gone "gavel" price? ;D ;D ;D
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sure. why not
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Yes Jacon4,, I am the worlds biggest skeptic !! I believe nothing a dealer says (or auction house) until I prove it is what they say !! Some things are more clear cut than others !! In this case they did a bad job on the pics,, did not show it at its best !! I am still sticking with $57K !! And yes,, I know I will be wrong !!
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In this case they did a bad job on the pics,, did not show it at its best !!
BAM!!! Yeah, they did a crappy job on pic's, even after photo's were requested, according to in person examiner. The proportions were WAY off as well, the top for instance was guesstimated at 1-1/2" thick in person but you would never know that from pic's. There was a strong presence and wow factor in person that photo's just didn't capture. I am guessing that they just do not want to spend the money on professional photographers these days, not even for important and expensive pieces, their mission is to do just enough to get you in the door. Basically, what we have these days is a 20 year old kid with a phone cam in hand! no matter the importance of the piece.
In any event, auction starts at 10 a.m. EST today and table is item #39 so by 10.30 or so, i'll post the sale price.
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BTW, speaking of Wallace Nutting & his camera work, he was known more during his life as a photographer and he made far more money with his camera than he ever did messing around with old furniture. This hand colored nutting photo sold in May for $4180. story at the link
http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/stories/wallace-nutting-blacksmith-photograph-sells-for-4180/5845
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I have to admit,, I like that photo !! Evidently there were several copies made of it,, or were there ?? Or that is the way it reads !!
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Hmmm, i don't really know but assume that since these pic's were hand colored, each one is unique but the B&W photo itself are just copies.
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OK, those in the guesstimate contest listed below with prediction on what this table will sell for, in thousands with BP included in guess. Anyone who has not guessed but wishes to, DO SO NOW and, anyone listed below that wishes to change their guess DO SO NOW. Winner gets a karma from all the losers.
1. jacon4............. ...............43k
2. ghopper............ ......... 45
3. Cogar.............. ........... 62
4. KC................. ........... 47
5. mart............... ........... 57
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Why are they having the auction on Sunday ?? They don`t take a day off ??
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Sat/Sunday is the main auction selling days!
OK, was SHOCKED at what this table sold for, auctions are really a crap shoot, with BP it went for 21k soooooooooooooooooo oooo, i won!!! There was a pair of 1795 Windsor chairs, nothing special, sale estimate 6-8k, that went for....wait for it........ $60,000....CRAZY! someone STOLE that table!
In any event, i am owed KARMA'S!!!
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1 point!
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LOL !! Well,, I paid up !!!
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I am paying up. But it isn't helping you pay for the table! LOLOL :D
Wow, it went way lower than expected. Heat wave getting to everyone?
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Heat wave getting to everyone?
Boy, hard to figure that one, 1/3 less than low estimate. The first item up at sale was a small painted box, went for 30k, at that point i figured table would go 100k. Then those 2 windsors, that was TOTALLY insane at 60k. The only thing that makes sense is, that provenance, something could have been wrong there with that piece in nutting book and previous owners listed at sale.
But it isn't helping you pay for the table!
I wish! I thought about it though! Thing is, if i had of bid, there was obviously someone there that was going to pay whatever it took to win and all i would have done is make them pay more. The fact that there was not a serious competitor is what made it sell low most likely.
Bottom line? Auctions are a crap shoot, simple as that. Someone got a HELL of a bargain today, i bet i see this table again, at least i hope i do.
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Mmmm,,,,Perhaps everyone thought as I did !! When we first started talking about this table I thought $30K would have been a big price for it !! But Jacon4 kept talking and I thought maybe there was something I was not seeing !! Evidently I was right the first time !! Texas may not have great furniture makers,, but ,,,come on Jacon4 I am waiting to hear !! I ain`t completely nuts yet !! ;D ;D
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I ain`t completely nuts yet
lol, Yet being the key word there? BAM! Well, hard to say why table sold low, i just do not know. What i do know is, at auction, you just can't predict where an object will end up on the price thingy, there are just to many variables. Isn't it just as possible that several of these variables came together and someone got a bargain?
Evidently I was right the first time !!
Even a blind squirrel is going to find an acorn every now & then. BAM!! You didn't like the table, i get it but, at the end of the day, $21,000. for a little table is not exactly chump change. It just didn't reach the stratosphere, price wise, like i thought it would.
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Even a blind squirrel is going to find an acorn every now & then. BAM!!
I've always heard it as: "Even a blind pig finds an acorn every now and then" or "Even a broken clock is right twice a day" BAM BAM!!
Of course, nobody would compare our Mart to a blind pig, right? More like: Too cool for school! :))
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Dang, you are up early ghopper! I was just changing my above post!
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Shucks,, you two are not even close to being early risers !! I have been up since 4:45 !! And in my neck of the woods its "a blind squirrel finds a nut" !! :D
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Excuse me? I believe I posted at 2:00 a.m., you lazy squirrel!
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Y'all are hilarious this morning...must be a lack of sleep!
Jacon4, figured the "heat wave" that had been passing thru had muddled people up and they weren't bidding.
OK, was SHOCKED at what this table sold for, auctions are really a crap shoot, with BP it went for 21k soooooooooooooooooo oooo, i won!!!
When I first read this I thought you meant you won/bought the table! But then realized you were closest in guessing!
I had always heard "Even a blind pig finds a truffle now and then". In fact, they are great at finding truffles!
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Excuse me? I believe I posted at 2:00 a.m., you lazy squirrel!
Darn,, didn`t look at that !!
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I notice the times listed for posts on this site are WAY OFF! For instance, it is now 4.21 a.m. EST (the only time that counts) , i doubt this post records correct time.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA A it listed post at 2.22 a.m., 2 hours off!
Added 2 hrs to profile, let's see if it works
Yep, it does, it's all better now!
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Just keep in mind that this forum is geared to Mountain Time, and it's all good.
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I go by Southern Time,,daylight when you start and dark when you stop !!
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EARTH to the other people, EST is the only time that counts! deal with it! BAM!
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I just had entered a Post and went back to check the "time stamp" on it and it was for someplace 2 hours East of Zone 5 (Eastern Standard Daylight-savings Time) which would be Zone 3 ..... or maybe Zone 2, both of which are Greenland or Brazil Time. 8) 8) 8)
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It's 2:12 CDT right now, and according to the forum it's 1:12. Go figure.
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Yep, it is based on the site's creator's time zone. So you can adjust your time on your account profile to reflect your time.
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I thought he was in the NE ??