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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: amandal on August 03, 2009, 09:41:54 pm
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i have a beautiful oil painting i dont know anything about it maybe some one here could help thanks for any replies
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Do you have any idea who painted it?
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Can you describe more about it? reprint? Oil? Canvas? Paper? Signature?
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At first glance , I'd say it's in need of some conservation .
It appears to me to have been cut from it's original frame .
That fact that it appears to be gessoed is a sign that the artist had a clue about painting .
After this item has been cleaned , surely new details will emerge from it .
It does , to my eyes , certainly have the contrasting elements of a couple of genteel white ladies dabbling in the occult & the vodoo/fortune-teller in rougher circumstances .
(is that a bucket-o'-guts I'm seeing ?)
If that's mold/mildew I'm seeing (or the after-effects of it) , I'd say it's time to abate it's progress & clean it up .
My knee-jerk reaction , so far , is to guess that it may be from the New Orleans area .
Please tell us what you do know about where you got this painting , amandal .
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Ooohh, I like that painting, if it is an actual oil. What is it painted on, it doesn’t look like canvas.
One seldom sees mixed-race subjects in a painting with the black person being the “primary subject”.
If the backing is paper, then it could possibly be a “textured” print of an old “scene”, ..... and thus quite possibly was at one time a "piece of Advertising" which would be great for you if the "product" could be identified. Anyway, a “Black Collectible” just the same.
By old “scene” I mean, the clothes, the hat and the “deck of cards” the fortuneteller ??? is using. The cards have no numbers on them …. which means they were typical “pre-mid-1800s playing cards”.
And ps, Regularjoe2, that is a “sewing basket”, not a bucket-o'-guts. ;D ;D ;D She is using the lid from the basket to deal the cards on.
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Sorry 'bout that ....
couldn't seem to restrain my inner-juvenile ..
too much java this morning !
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I knew I has seen a similar painting such as this it was done. by Sarah baselica. it would be interesting to see if this is before or after. or just a reprint.
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I agree this could be a really nice painting and it should be preserved. It looks to me like a scene from plantation life in the south pre civil war. Could have been painted later. Not sure if there is fortune telling going on or just card playing. I think the black woman is the mammy to the two girls. Need more information. Is it an actual oil painting. Sure looks like it.
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It's interesting that the suit on the cards are all either hearts or diamonds. No other suits, no face cards. Tarot cards have pictures, so its not tarot. I also noticed that the ace seems to be rising out of the basket lid on it's own... there appears to be no hand there holding it up! But maybe that's just that it needs cleaning.
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The modern deck as we know it today was the original Tarot Deck, Fortunes was read on what we consider a standard deck today, however it did have a few less cards. I believe it was the late 1800's that the new tarot deck was formed Morgan greer deck, I think it was, been a while since I studied that stuff.
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Interesting! I had no idea about that!
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I do think this is a pic of 2 ladies trying to get a handle on the future with cards. Really strange that the "teller" would have the cards hidden in the sewing box - but bet she was a worker and did sewing...thus the hidden secret that most folks wouldn't take kindly to. The ladies are apparently out of their own home....one carrying a parasol depicts that she has been on an outing.
I almost exploded when I read regularjoe2's comments about entrails..... You don't get out much, huh? LOL LOL LOL LOL I can honestly say there may be someone on this site crazier than me for a change! Nice to have you here!
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Actually had to go check my memory, not quite right, History goes back a bit further and the first deck was the waite deck 1910 that started the modern craze.
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Spiritualism was huge back in the Victorian era. Lots of regular folks were into it back then. I used to work guiding tours at the Winchester Mystery House in San Jose, CA and I always found it very sad that the last decades of Sarah's life were so completely devoted to trying to appease the spirits she thought had killed her husband and daughter, the angry spirits of those killed by the Winchester rifle. A lot of people took it very seriously.
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Went to that Winchester house Talesof....gave me the heebie-jeebies. So sad that she was so guiltridden/scared of the people that the rifle killed. AND...people took advantage of that! But it shows you what people with money get to do when they have obsessions. However, lots of folks were employed because of it (was the brighter side of a sad situation).
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yes this is an oil painting. i had purchased a large antique frame and there was an old print inside i took out the print and found this,the are no marking or names on it . i have taken it to a couple of antique shops and the owners were really interested in purchasing it but i decided i needed to get some info if i could . it looks to be painted on some type of canvas or a durable fabric of some kind. there are no signs of mold or mildew on the painting its just the color of it. it probibly needs cleaned but i dont know what to use,thanks if you might know something let me know
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I by no means is a expert here but I did just read the other day that you some time can tell the date by the weave in the canvas. One can tell machine canvas vs. handmade, not sure have not tested this out yet, just thought I would add that.
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you know i found an artist named harry roseland and he painted many oils similar.they are very interesting
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Way to go amandal....Great, terrific, magnificent.....
Take a look at http://marygreer.wordpress.com/2009/07/19/harry-herman-roseland/ (http://marygreer.wordpress.com/2009/07/19/harry-herman-roseland/)
http://www.readersandrootworkers.org/index.php?title=Category:Card_Reading (http://www.readersandrootworkers.org/index.php?title=Category:Card_Reading)
http://www.tfaoi.com/aa/4aa/4aa546.htm (http://www.tfaoi.com/aa/4aa/4aa546.htm)
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This is way cool stuff, things dreams our made of ::). Good site on the artist KC
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That second painting on the site is sure similar in concept!
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yes this is an oil painting. it looks to be painted on some type of canvas or a durable fabric of some kind.
amandal, if it was really an old painting and was painted on canvas or durable fabric, then wouldn't/shouldn't there be a wood frame to stretch said canvas/fabric on?
I couldn't tell by your picture of the painting if there was a frame and that was why I was asking. And the un-painted front edges of the "painting" had me a little dubious also.
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KC is right...it's by Harry Roseland. "The Fortune Teller" Could be worth alot of something if original. Wow
http://www.askart.com/askart/artists/search/inquiry.aspx?artist=23646&ad=5135&searchtype=ART_FOR_SALE
This site has the same painting, 1899.
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wowsa!!!
Thank you for your inquiry on Roseland's "The Fortune Teller."
The painting is a fine example of the artist's best work. Signed and dated '99 it is in excellent unlined condition. Housed in a beautiful antique frame that appears original to the painting. priced at $26,000.00.
Regards,
Jack Lane
Red Piano Gallery
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cogar, amandel noted that a picture was purchased and the picture was removed and this picture was behind it.
It is not uncommon from really old paintings to find another painting behind it. If frames were perfect for homes they could just get new pics put in and usually kept the old one.
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Keep in mind it could also have been done by an art student who was learning by copying Roseland's work. Considering the value of the known Roseland painting, I think it would be worthwhile to have someone check this out in person.
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Totally agree Talesof....need to go have it professionally examined/appraised. Could be worth some big $$$$$$ or $$.
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amandal , this suggestion may sound a bit 'out there' , but ...
in consideration of the fact that this canvas was 'hidden' ( @ least that's what I gather , from your postings ) behind a framed print , perhaps it may have been stolen ( or hidden for some other reason ).
Althought it seems as if it was done in the style of the artist , the skill level seems a bit 'off' for the artists' work , and of course may be a copied work , as other posters noted .... but who knows ?
The fact that you purchased the frame at a legit shop should be a very good 'CYA' , in the event that your painting was purloined , or the work of a forger .
I've also discovered several paintings on canvas 'hidden' behind others , 4 out of 5 of them were forgeries of famous -to - semi-famous artists .
Speaking from the viewpoint of an old-timer - the rule is - "If there is a doubt , there is no doubt ; check it out."
The F.B.I. has got a large database on stolen artworks and legitmate collectors will sometimes check with them about a work they've bought or are intending to buy .
An individual needs to get in touch with a field office of the F.B.I. , generally , to check artwork against their stolen art database though .... not everybody is comfortable doing so , however .
Just junk-food for thought .... I'm not saying one thing or the other here .
I 100% agree with the opinion of having it seen by someone in the know , as previous posters suggested .
One last suggestion is to handle this canvas with clean white cotton gloves ...acids from your hands can cause damage .
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cogar, amandel noted that a picture was purchased and the picture was removed and this picture was behind it.
It is not uncommon from really old paintings to find another painting behind it. If frames were perfect for homes they could just get new pics put in and usually kept the old one.
"Yes", KC, I understand very well what Amandel was saying, .... but it was what he wasn't saying that was bugging me.
Now I don't mean to be pierty but do you know anything about "painting with oils on canvas"?
There are only two (2) ways to “start doing” it as far as I know.
1. Choose your size painting and then purchase said size of “canvas panel/board” from an art supply store.
2. Choose your size painting and then purchase or make yourself a small wood frame out of ½” x ¾” wood strips of said size, ….. then purchase a roll of canvas, cut said to size and then staple or tack said onto said wood frame. Or, you can buy pre-made one, to wit:
Blick Studio Canvas is economically priced for students and professionals. We start with a 7 oz, pre-primed 100% cotton duck canvas and add 3 coats of acid free titanium gesso. Final post primed, finished weights reach approximately 10.5 oz. This canvas is then hand stretched and stapled around solid wood stretchers. You can forget about time consuming preparation. Studio canvas is the perfect balance of high quality and economy. http://www.dickblick.com/categories/canvas/ (http://www.dickblick.com/categories/canvas/)
So you see KC, if that above painting was painted on canvas and it was painted say pre-1940, then it was painted on a canvas on a stretcher frame because I’m guessing one couldn’t purchase said canvas panels or boards pre-1940. I could be wrong on that though.
And since Amandel’s painting is pictured sitting up all straight n’ firm, which you can’t get a piece of painted canvas to do …… without a stretcher frame holding it, … I wanted to see or know if there was a frame doing said. If not, …. then, well “duh”.
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cogar...could you re-explain that so I can understand.... :) Just poking fun!
I also saw that it was stiff.....and meant to make a comment....but it slipped my mind!
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I did over do it a bit ..... but I wasn't in a hurry so .... I figured "if Kc doesn't know why I'm being so pesty about the frame then there will sure be a bunch more viewers that will be also".
After I posted that long one I said to myself, .... d--m, should have said "stretcher frame" at the git-go. My bad .... for not doing so. CRS ya know. ;D ;D
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i won't pretend to know a whole lot of where this painting could come from or who even painted it ans when.but i will bring up the fact that it is funny ppl mentioning new orleans it is almost reminiscent of the voodoo queen of new orleans miss marie laveau. nice painting btw!
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C
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Cogar your excused, you were only pointing out certain fact's. it honestly look's like oil on board, which may account for the chip damage. we have a nice group here now. and sometimes I just set back & watch.
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It's sure tough to figure some things out from brief descriptions and o/l images .
I noticed the slight & regular scalloping of the canvas at the top (not at the bottom , by the bucket o' guts ;D) , and I thought it looked very much like a streched & 'set' canvas that had been cut out of it's strecher-frame .
I still do .
:)
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I love this board!!!!! Even the bantering! Makes it fun and interesting. :P
Cogar....your explanations are awesome! D&b, noticed you didn't seem to be posting as much....I agree...we aren't having to answer so many because there is a nice, large group that are jumping in with all kinds of information! Some days my brain hurts there is so much to learn! :) :) :O
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What's interesting, is Sarah Baselica did a painting called fortune teller look's very much like this one with the same Bucket of '' Gut's'' if I remember correctly her painting, had one less female. but the art work.... look's like Sara's.
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Why thank you KC, I appreciate that nice comment.
I kinda keep my eye on the "# of Views" for each posting, and the one's that are really "hot" ..... I know there are bunches of people wanting to learn more about that specific item and the things they can read from all the expertise of the Posters here-on they are not likely to find any place else on the Net.
A Forum like this one is about the only place the "young folks" can learn about the history and uses of the "What is its".
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this painting is actually on canvas it has been cut from frame.it is flemzy buy i had it laying ona chair while taking picture eaven the back of painting has some kind of brown something painted over it.as to the bucket o guts ha thats actually thread she must of been doing needle work and it using the lid of her thread container to lay the cards out.if i were to clean this painting what would i use? thanks for all info this forum is really cool
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also i have tried to research the sarah baselica painting and i cant seem to find anything regarding any such person could you give me advice on where to look?
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I'd most strongly recommend that you use a very powerful tool when you get to thinking about cleaning this painting , amandal .
That tool is common sense .
Leave the cleaning of your fragile painting to someone with specific experience in cleaning oil paintings !!!
I'm certain that this one would make a very bad 'beginners' project , esp. in it's current condition .
The painting really belongs in/on a stretcher frame .
Nothing wrong with learning about how-to , but causing more damage might make you cuss .
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I thought it was determined that this painting was done by, or copied from, Harry Roseland.