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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: kehbe on August 12, 2009, 09:26:37 am
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I was hoping someone would be able to tell me a bit more about this set I aquired recently. The only marking I can find on any of it is the German patent/protection mark "geschutzt". Also on the bottom of the paperweight is a paper tag stating "Old Bronze ____ Set, 1880, ink__l, opener, blot___, paperweight, pair candlesticks. I acquired it from my ex-mother-in-law. She came to U.S. during WWII from Switzerland. The peices are adorned with grapes and cherubs, or "putti". The blotter has what appears to be blue paper or felt on the bottom of it. I don't know if it is original or not. It seems to be. Thanks for taking a look at this and thanks in advance to anyone who may be able to shed any light on the origins or maker/history or value of these items!
Posted by Kyle B
Labels: candlestick, desk set, inkwell, letter opener, paperweight
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset016.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset005.jpg)
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Very nice desk set , kehbe !
If I were in your sneakers , I'd take out my fine-toothed comb ( & magnifier ) and fully examine all pieces in the set , looking for signatures and any makers' marks/serial #'s etc .
Having knowledge of such marks will greatly aid in researching your items here & anywhere else , for that matter .
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Do you have any idea of the kind of metal?
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What is the inner lining of the inkwell made of? Glass? Porcelain? Plastic? Enameled metal? That will help determine this as well.
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Do you have any idea of the kind of metal?
As for material, I can only base my assumption on the paper tag that is 'taped' to the bottom of the paper weight (The tape is an indicator of when it was labeled eh?) and my jewelery making experience, I would say the metal is bronze. It seems VERY heavy for it's size.
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What is the inner lining of the inkwell made of? Glass? Porcelain? Plastic? Enameled metal? That will help determine this as well.
The lining of the inkwell is porcelain and is removable. It sets inside the casting with a good fit. I have found no markings on the porcelain well itself. It looks as though there was "possibly" a marking on the bottom of it at one time but is not discernible now. I will post more close-ups if it would help to identify it.
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Very nice desk set , kehbe !
If I were in your sneakers , I'd take out my fine-toothed comb ( & magnifier ) and fully examine all pieces in the set , looking for signatures and any makers' marks/serial #'s etc .
Having knowledge of such marks will greatly aid in researching your items here & anywhere else , for that matter .
Thanks RG2, I have looked them over pretty good and spent two days searching the web for "desk sets", "German castings", inkwells and every other combination of words I could think of that might get me some results that were informative. I have found many other sets but none that look like this one or that would give me some 'clue'. Also, I would like to thank ALL who have responded with suggestions and advice. I'm new here but I am an avid collector of, well, everything to be quite honest. Antique or otherwise... just ask my wife! My garage and my attic are full of my "treasures"!
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So, we know that the note was put on after 1930 since that is when cellophane tape (aka pressure sensitive tape, Scotch Tape) invented....still have more to look into....
By-the-way....love the looks of the set! Very nice.
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So , kehbe , am I correct in assuming that you've not removed the paper & tape tag to check for makers marks ? ... also , does the blotter have a slider or similar 'locking/release' device (for replacing blotter material - one more covert place to check for marks ) ?
I'm also curious to know if your set is solid-cast through & through , or if elements have been soldered/braised/welded onto each other .
I can't tell for sure from the posted images , but it sorta looks like non-solid ( one piece) cast to this old mans' semi-blind eyes .
Thanks for all your feedback & on-going input about your desk set .
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Could you post some pics of the undersides? Looking for marks, screws, etc.
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So , kehbe , am I correct in assuming that you've not removed the paper & tape tag to check for makers marks ? ... also , does the blotter have a slider or similar 'locking/release' device (for replacing blotter material - one more covert place to check for marks ) ?
I'm also curious to know if your set is solid-cast through & through , or if elements have been soldered/braised/welded onto each other .
I can't tell for sure from the posted images , but it sorta looks like non-solid ( one piece) cast to this old mans' semi-blind eyes .
Thanks for all your feedback & on-going input about your desk set .
RJ2 and KC,
I have not removed the paper tag. I wasn't sure if I should or not. Also, there are various parts that are screwed on and I am attaching some pics to this email showing these areas. In short, it is NOT one solid cast piece.
The candlesticks come apart in 5 different pieces. The inkwell comes apart in 3 pieces, not counting the porcelain well itself. The blotter comes apart by unscrewing the cherub from the top and the paper on the blotter was obviously replaced at a later date. I have included a photo of it as well.
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset001.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset002.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset003.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset004.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset005-1.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset010.jpg)
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(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset007.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset009.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset006.jpg)
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Definition: Geschutzt is a mark sometimes found on antiques of German origin which translates to protected or copyrighted; similar in meaning to the U.S. patented and pat. pend. marks. Geschutzt is also associated with Austrian bronzes of many types.
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I've been hovering hard over this thread, Not because I know enough, More hoping to hear a value. I have look from time to time at antique Desk sets, If I find a good one my lady friend will be really happy. ;D. What I do know is that these sets are really hard to find, and this one has candleholders. Wow, just look around and you will see they are very expensive. Bronze ones seem a bit less common. It seems we have established the german area, the label dates it to the 1880's. It does seem to be period and they really feel out of favor in the early 1900's. I wonder if the word "copyright" has any proof or disproof to the date. The screw on the back of the cherb looks old but also has a machine look to it. However I will say that I could believe the label. The only real thing we lack is maker and value. Wish I could help on the maker, but I will go out on a limb and say that if truly period $1,500.00 to $2,000.00, mostly because it is complete and look victorian, and lots of rich collectors and Interior decorators who would drool over something like this. I did see one go for 1,000.00 at a Auction in a box and was not near as nice and no Candleholders. I think you have a real treasure there :D
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Wow , kehbe , thanks for all the new images & disassembly & such .
I've bought & sold a few dozen desk sets through the years and 3 of them had 'messages' from the owners underneath the blotter pad ( this is one of the reasons I asked if yours was replaceable) .
Perhaps one owner (previous) was the fella whose name (Max Bernstein) was printed on that paper ....
Now that I see you've taken the pieces apart , I'm really curious to know the thread pitch on any of the threaded pieces , if you're familiar with what I mean ... it's just one more clue-type thing .
I'm plugging away , seeing if I can find something concrete on your nice desk set .
We'll see what the next few days bring .
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Hmm,
I found this link after researching the "Max Bernstein" (publisher) that is on the paper that has been replaced on the blotter. He shows up about half way down the page. Interesting that they were in business in the early 1900's. 1916 to 1932. Located right here in Kansas City, which is where I live. This info then would lead me to believe that possibly my ex-mother-in-law aquired this set 'after' she came to the states and did not bring it with her from Switzerland. don't know for sure. Any thoughts? I am going to try to contact her for more info.
http://www.metropostcard.com/publishersb1.html
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Actually interested in the underside of blotter piece...Max Bernstein was a publisher of post cards 1916 - 1932....they are highly collectible from the early 1900's. Can you post a better pic of this? This helps in dating your piece! Is this a business card?
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As near as I can tell, the thread size and pitch is very close to an M4-0.7..... doesn't seem to be exact though.
It is definatly not an american standard thread. #8-32 is to small and #10-24 is to large. I have thread gauges which I have included pictures of.
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset002-1.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset001-1.jpg)
Yes the blotter paper seems to be an old business card of sorts, advertising the "Max Bernstein" company.
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset005-2.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/eclo/germaninkwellset004-1.jpg)
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It was my initial idiot-savant impression that this desk set would be an ornate and impressive prop for Mr. Max to have had on his desk .
It seems a bit too fancy for a regular joe to have had kickin' 'round the office .
I was hoping to hear that you lived in the K.C. vicinity kehbe , so as to lend some credence to the possibility that your items may just have some link to him .
As alot of the folks here know , sometimes WHO owned an article can have favorable impact upon it's value .
We'll see what comes up around the next bend , with the good research , so far .
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I think your hardware is 'Wentworth' threaded .
Thanks for posting about it .
Another suggestion for your consideration , as to searching for maker , would be to use/include the search terms : Nouveau Victorian jewel casket , jewel box or trinket box .
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By-all-means...if you can contact her....try and get the information if this was his set. Not unheard of, but would be unusual for someone to use his business card on a blotter. But if it could be linked to him....he does have notoriety in the collectible post cards....which would help increase the value of the set! Also, you could establish a better time line.
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Here goes,
A bit of history on these peices and a bit of a long story and I hope you all don't mind reading it. I spoke with my ex mother-in-law. When she came over from Switzerland, with an army man she met in France and soon married, during the war, she got a job here in Kansas City as the housekeeper for a family named Rosenberg (sp). The Rosenbergs's went on to be quite a wealthy Jewish family here in town and eventually owning the Kansas City Kings, an NBA team. Mr. Rosenberg's Grandmother, who, from what I can gather, came here in the late 1800's was married to a man of modest means. She wanted more and alledgely had an affair with a wealthy man here in Kansas City. Name not known. (Perhaps Bernstein?) When she died, most of her estate, since Mr. Rosenberg had passed on, went to the wife of Mr. Rosenberg , who my ex mother-in-law worked for. After years of the bulk of the estate setting in the basement, my ex mother-in-law was instructed to bag it up and take it all to the thrift store. But not before being told she could have what she wanted of it. She happened to grab this set, because HER Grandmother had a similar set, minus the candlesticks. To her it was sentimental. She also got several other peices that I am trying to get more info on. I will post about some of thee other items as they come available.
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Interesting story. Did you, by chance, ask her if she was the one to "tag" the information on the back?
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Aw man, I wonder what went to the thrift store?!!