Antique-shop.com
Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: hosman321 on September 13, 2010, 04:10:54 pm
-
Recently won this. Wondering if you guys think it is as old as they state it is. I can't believe I spent $30 on it but I only did because it does look super old. Any thoughts? Opinions? They still haven't sent the dang thing out, but said they will tomorrow. :-\
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270628229965&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
-
Bumping. :)
-
Have you received it yet?
-
As far as I know, they still have not shipped it. Getting really irritated. I have a feeling they are having "seller's remorse" and are ticked that it sold for $9.99.
-
Well, I got this today. They sent it fedex and it got here super fast. But I have about a million questions about it. I'm really curious about it's age. I don't know if it's 1600's or 1800's. Here's my best description:
1. The finish is really strange. It's somewhat "greasy." And frankly, it smells like animal fat or a dead animal. It's not super stinky nor emitting some horrible smell. Just a faint smell. I feel like I have to wash my hands after touching it, it leaves a slightly greasy feel on my hands. It even has the appearance of fat in person. Did they use any animal materials in finishes a long time ago?
2. Under the seat, within the finish, there appears to be grass and seeds. Did they use any mixture of grass and seeds in finishes a long time ago?
3. It is built very very strong, I believe it was a footstool, like this one. http://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/photos/dealer_helios_full_1265909181258-9502210674.jpg
I believe that one was described as 1600's.
The wear pattern on the seat is kind of in the shape of a foot, rather than a tooshie. ;)
4. Underneath, in the joints there is some sort of red clay-like material. Very hard.
5. The big huge "chips" in the wood slats (underneath) are underneath the finish, they don't appear to be later damage.
6. In the later "L" bracket repairs, the screws slightly poke through the other side. The ends of them are like nails (No threads).
Thanks in advance for any ideas, I'm curious about this little thing!
Oh, and one last thing. When I first looked at it, I didn't think it could be terribly old because there wasn't any shrinkage in the joints that would cause them to "pop out." Is it possible that this thick, greasy fatty-type finish prevented the wood from drying out like unfinished wood would?
-
Got some info from here, but it's not very in-depth. Trying to find a better site...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varnish
-
It appears they waxed the daylights out of it... could it be some type of wax?
-
I suppose it could be wax but it doesn't really have the feel of wax. It's more of a thin, flaking, peeling....somethin g. :P
Then again, I wouldn't know what old wax felt like.
-
Hosman, I never saw the original posting on this and just saw the pics tonight. My only response is, What did you see in this chair that made you want to buy it? I am not much when it comes to furniture identification but there is so much wrong with this chair. When I first looked at it , I thought it looked like a garden chair my wife pays $1 for and sits in the garden with a potted flower on it but now I see it is a doll size chair. Visit http://www.worthpoint.com/blog-entry/clues-antique-chairs and read about through tenons and some other points. If you have watched the Keno brothers, they look for oxidation on the undersides of the wood, original blocking, wear points etc. Your chair seems to have a number of red flags. Sometimes our brain is telling us one thing (that which we want to believe) while our gut is telling us something else (that is what it really is). I think you already know what this chair is and what it isn't but I would make a little "T" chart and objectively write down the good points and the bad points in the two columns. After that I think you will have your answer.
If those through tenons are really old, they should also be pinned and not just glued with hide glue. Are they pinned? Wax buildup on the surface could account for the greasy feel. Take that off with some minerals spirits to see. Seeds and grass are not part of a furniture finish but may become part after sitting a wet finish in a meadow. Red-clay like material could be hardened wood filler or putty. Huge chunks out of wood sounds like scrap wood was used. Pointed ends of screw not threaded - I have screws such as those in my screw box. Bascically self-threading screws where the point allows the screw to be power driven through the wood without a pilot hole. The wear pattern on the seat should be from a butt and not a foot. That flaky finish sounds like old varnish/shellac that has lifted due to moisture under the finish. It gets kind of an opaque look rather than a see-through look. Just my thoughts.
-
I was mostly interested in it for my primitive-themed display case, wayward. I'm always looking for inexpensive items to put in there to act as shelving. If I'm unsure of the age of an item, I won't pay more than $20-$40. That way, if it's modern, at least I didn't waste a fortune and I still got something that looks old. :-\
I have a different feeling with this little chair, it's much different than the other little chairs I see in person. Now that I look at the bottoms of the legs (that are exposed and worn down) they do look very dried out and a bit shrunken. I do realize that wood dries out and can shrink within just a few years. I don't know, it just seems to be at least 100 years old. I have a feeling I may have to take this thing to the antique show in November for the $5 appraisal and identification. I just don't want to wait that long. :P
Oh, and I did notice a few tiny little nails. They have really deformed heads, look hand made. I'll try to get pics. Although they don't help with age much either. Thanks for the input!
-
Primitive is good. I hope your appraisal fairs actually have some experts for your $5 to be worth something. In my area, these are done by dealers and while some may know a lot, others just think they know a lot. I get (free) advice from collector friends that specialize in an area that I know they are experts in (a wealth of knowledge from years of collecting).
In order to evaluate your chair, try and look past the screws, nails, non-original brackets, repairs, etc. and look to see how the chair was originally put together. This may be a 'homemade' chair that a father made for his daughter and lacked finishing/construction skills for expert work.
-
Well, my non-professional two cents worth is if it looks good with your primatives, it deserves it's own little corner in your world. Maybe with an antique doll sitting in it! It does look like it has seen many days in the children's nursery, even if it didn't have the best of care in the past.
Could the peeling stuff be old clear varnish? It almost looks like boat varnish in the pix. If it is, it could be removed pretty easily with a heat gun and a plastic scraper.
-
Sorry wayward, forgot to answer your "pinned" question. I'm not totally sure what that means but I took these pics. There are tiny metal pins (no heads on them, square shaped) near all the joints. Are these what you mean or somethin' else?
And thanks for the input, tales! Dolls scare the heck out of me! Well, just old ones.
-
Nevermind, I don't think that's what you meant. I looked it up.
-
If it makes any difference, this is the method of construction. With the wedges.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mortise.png
I should have also read the varnish link better. The greasy, oily varnish was probably made this way:
"There are many different types of drying oil, including linseed oil, tung oil, and walnut oil. These contain high levels of polyunsaturated fatty acids."
-
Hosman, if they are "square shaped" then those "pins" are most probably "cut" finishing nails that were driven in to prevent the tenon from coming loose.
And "cut" nails haven't been commonly used since the late 1880's ...... except for people like me who keep a "selection" of them on-hand to be used at my descretion. ;D ;D ;D
Now maybe that "sticky" finish is because the seller "wiped" it down with something before he shipped it to you. Old English oil sometimes takes a day or so to dry good if the excess isn't wiped off good.
And then, sometimes "you get a chemical reaction" if you apply a new type oil/finish to something that has a really old type finish on it ....... resulting in a "sticky" finish that won't dry.
Linseed and tung oil takes a couple days to dry really good but then they are as hard as varnish. That is if it is "boiled" linseed oil. Pure unboiled linseed oil takes at least 3 days to dry.
-
Thanks for the input, cogar. :)
Here's one of the nail sites that I found. My nails look pretty darn close to the ones they describe as being mid 1700's-early 1800's. Maybe the seller was accurate. ??? Some nails are exposed, maybe I'll take pics of them later today. But, of course, they used them up until the late 1800's so that doesn't help much. I looked at the appraisers at the show, wonder if they even have experience in wood items...
http://www.harpgallery.com/library/nails.htm
http://www.palmerwirfs.com/html/p_p05_evalate_id.html
-
hosman321 I can see why you purchased this chair!!! ruff shape but very cute. IMO I am leaning more to a child's chair due to the size & not so much for dolls (they creep me out also and I have probably 500 dolls in storage YUK) Tried to pick the hubby's brain but he is not into antiques but does makes furniture and has made children's chairs for our son. I also think this was made by a father for his child and does seem to have age. I would take it to the show and for $5.00 see what they say, couldn't hurt. again so so cute keep us posted on what you discover :D
-
The pinning I meant was with wood dowels which I think you found out. The pinning in your chair is actually nailing which was done much later than the time of construction. Very common for non-original owners to do because they used what was on hand and usually have no idea how to stabilize joints. The wedged tenon method is good but those wedges should be flush cut with the leg surface. The ones in your pic look pretty rough so they were probably added or replaced later. You probably have an old chair with many repairs done to it from subsequent owners. If they are period repairs, I would leave them. If they are modern repairs and you want to preserve the primitiveness of the original maker, then I would try to 'fix' it appropriately. I would defintely take off those metal "L" brackets and see how strong the joint is. But if this is just for display and you like the present look, it would be much easier to leave it alone. If you enjoy it, that is what counts.
-
Cool chair/stool , hosman321 .
Maybe the red clay mat'l is really just red clay/mud ?
Since it's been mentioned that there might have been footstool use with this item :
Perhaps it was used as a footstool/step/'custom' bucket seat for a cart .... specifically a donkey or horse/mule cart (for tourists , passengers & such) as have been common south of the border .
Seems like it's had plenty of skruin' with & if it were in my little paws , I'd just de-gloss & clean the finish (in a smallish 'test area' first) with a couple of grades of steel wool & 90% isopropyl alcohol & if the finish was still sticky afterwards , I'd move on to a stronger solvent like denatured alcohol .
A coat of oil &/or wax after that & I'd call it good enough for me .
I'm going to guess that the 90 degree steel braces on your wonderful & well used item were installed in the 20th century , since rather common oval-head screws were used to attach them .
Dark areas in the wood indicate rust from nails (stool/chair was used outdoors?) , in some of the images from Ebay .
I'm curious to know if there is much wear on the back of the top of your item ...
Anyway , there's my 2 cents to muddy the mix .
I'd have to guess 1860-1890's on it , from images only .
-
Chair has Art's & Craft's construction 1920's maybe 1930's. mending bracket's would have to go. nails likely added later. crest rail is a bolster which is and oddity.
-
I was definitely thinking mission/arts and crafts too, D&B. I just didn't want to believe it. It's throwing me off with all the repairs, square nails and the crude varnish. But, if some guy in his barn was making this 100 years ago, that would explain the lack of experience. I think I'm just going to tell myself that this was made around 1890. Those square nails are the only reason. D&B is the furniture man though, and knows more than me. I'll take it with me in November, it's only 5 bucks and maybe they have some ideas, too.
Also, some of the wedges are very flat and flush while some poke out a bit. I think some of those have been repaired, too. And the two L brackets are holding the top on because it was completely broken off, not at a joint. So that'd be fun to try to repair. Probaby just wood glue but it looks like pieces of wood came off when it broke, it'd look funny unless I filled it in. Just not that ambitious with this little thing yet. :P
Oh, and the red clay stuff seems a lot like sand mixed with something. It's like...plastered into the joints (to make them stronger?) and not just enviornmental residue. It's very hardened, I'm curious about it. Is there red sand plaster? One of the pics I posted shows it under the chair.
Also, the wood on the back looks kind of...rippled? I don't know if these are cut marks or saw marks or what. I'll try to get a good pic. The spacing between the ripples is irregular, so it may just be the wood. Thanks for all the input! I'm fairly heartbroken this thing isn't from the 1700's, but I will just look at it as a learning tool, like so many other things I have. At least I didn't spend a fortune. :)
-
Thanks for all the additional info .
Perhaps the 'red clay' is Bondo , or perhaps some other epoxy & sand mix ?
Maybe someone slipped/tipped while standing on this item & snapped-off the back .
-
The "wedges" not being flush might well be from expanding/contracting with age. I have an old Chinese cabinet with mortise and tenon construction and some of them are slightly "popped out".
-
And the two L brackets are holding the top on because it was completely broken off,
As rusty as that L-bracket is it will be tricky to get off. Like drilling the screws out ….. and then the rusting L-bracket will have discolored the wood underneath it. And to “fix it” you will have to drill it and put wood dowel pins in.
Oh, and the red clay stuff seems a lot like sand mixed with something
If it is not purchased “wood putty” then it could be just a mixture of “sawdust & glue”. I only ever used that “wood putty” out of a can once or twice and gave up on it because you can never get it to match.
Thus I have ever since made my own “putty” by using scrapings or sawdust from the same wood I’m repairing. Mix the sawdust with glue, pack it into the hole or crack being repaired and then sprinkle or tenderly rub some more sawdust on top of the “wet” mixture (but don't let any glue get on top of that sawdust) and let it dry. That way the “color” of your patch will match the color of the wood being repaired.
And if you are going to apply stain, that patch will "take" the stain ........ but it might be a wee darker.
-
Ok, this thing is driving me crazy. I've been sitting here twirling it and twirling it looking for more signs. I chipped away a tiny piece of the finish accidentally. Where it chipped, I found a different type of nail. So, I got out the magnifying glass and found more of them under the finish and chipped those areas away. These nails are different than the square ones (later repairs??) that are everywhere. They appear to be iron (unlike the square ones that appear to be cut steel) and are...what's the word? Pitted? Crude? Rusty? I don't know, not smooth. Some are roundish, some are square-ish. They are definitely older than the cut nails and were very hidden, they kind of blended into the wood. A few of them are even a little confusing because they are round-ish and they chip away like wood, maybe they are wood pegs?? ???
I'm starting to think it's older than 1890's and definitely not 1920's-1930's. Who would construct something with wood pegs, square head nails and crude iron nails in the 20's? Am I wrong or is it possible they did? I'm leaning toward it being repaired in the 1890's-1900 with the square nails, brackets and ugly finish. But was made much earlier.
I put red circles around the nails but they are kinda hard to see.
-
Also, the large chunks missing from the underneath are a result of worms tunneling rather than just reclaimed beat-up wood. I just can't figure out if they tunneled while the tree was alive or afterward. ??? It's under the "newer" (top layer) of finish.
-
Quite a mystery chair you've got their Hosman! I have to say, I like it too!
-
Do you have a museum or reputable woodworker/antique refurbisher near you? I really think this is one a "hands on" needs to be seen and figure out the time line.
Believe there have been lots of repairs made with made do items!
If only it could talk!!!!!!!!
-
I agree with KC this needs to be looked at in person. There are blacksmith cut nails and machine cut nails. Nails were expensive years ago. Wood peg joints denote age or were less expensive than buying nails. The worm tunnels are only on the underside of this chair and shows some roundness so this tells me these boards were the bark side (closer to the outside of the tree) of the board. This also tells me this was an inexpensive piece. Worm tunnels are common on every tree and are right under the bark and in the bark especially in an older tree. A good craftsman would have culled these boards out of his finished furniture and used better quality boards. The flats of these boards should show hand planing. If they are real smooth, I would expect a power planer was used. For this chair to be as old as you suspect, I would expect all pieces of the chair to show hand tool marks and no circular saw marks. All planing should be done with hand planes so some waviness or even tool chatter should be apparent, especially in board surfaces that are not on the finished side. Finished sides would have been hand scraped to the desired smooth finish.
-
You guys (and gals) are all so great about helping me in my obsessive times. :) I just can't stand it when I don't know something. But at least I'm learning what to look for. Here's some pics of tool marks. They just kind of go in every direction (like chiseling?) and parts are really "rippled." Of course, they don't accurately date it either, anybody can chisel wood at any time. :-\
Rippling in the third pic. Hard to capture.
-
Those rough tool marks show age and hand use. I do not see any circular saw marks in those pics. "Anybody can chisel wood at any time" is correct but it is much, much easier and faster to rip wood on a table saw and finish with a planer/sander than to do it by hand. Years and years ago, hand tools were the only method to cut and final shape wood thus the inquiry about tool marks.
-
Oh my God, almost the EXACT same dimensions. Give or take half an inch. I am going to write and see how theirs are constructed. I really hope they say theirs are made with modern hardware because they have 5 of them. Then I'll know theirs are copies. If theirs are made with the same construction as mine then I'll know mine is a reproduction (since they have 5) and I'll be heartbroken!
http://cgi.ebay.com/Old-Wooden-Child-Chair-OAK-Childs-School-Chair-WHITE-/220652263759?pt=Folk_Art&hash=item335fe6594f
Their paint job does appear to be "distressed" rather than genuine wear. But still...
-
More from the same seller. Found in China. NOT GOOD! But theirs do appear to have a solid seat (mine is 3 boards), smooth wood and I can't see mortise joints. Could those chairs be repros of a chair like mine? Or was my chair seriously made in the 1980's? ???
http://cgi.ebay.com/Old-Wooden-Child-Chair-OAK-Childs-School-Chair-BLUE-/290463494680?pt=Folk_Art&hash=item43a0f93218
http://cgi.ebay.com/Old-Wooden-Child-Chair-OAK-Childs-School-Chair-YELLOW-/290463718441?pt=Folk_Art&hash=item43a0fc9c29
Also, the top middle wood piece is exactly the same on all of their different color chairs, my piece right there is a bit bigger.
-
hosman, in looking to see if I could find another like yours this came up..
http://www.weylandts.co.za/products/chair
But scant info listed.
-
That just really infuriates me. Looks exactly like mine and has mortise joints. The three wood pieces on back are a bit wider on that one but probably the same company. China is the dreaded word. And I'm starting to think this was made in China recently as a forgery. GRRRRR!
-
Wait, I'm confused. Is that a website for brand new items, like they have many of those? Or is it only one?
-
It's in their 'Antiques' section........what ever that means ::) Still looking !! ;)
-
I'm having a hard time believing their antiques because they list a specific item but then say it will vary with imperfections. That's odd, why would they have multiple primitive buffets with 3 drawers?
http://www.weylandts.co.za/products/long-buffet-table-with-3-drawers
I still think mine's a repro made by those jerks in China just to fool people. Man, this chair would be a great forgery, it just feels so so old when I hold it and had me so convinced. :-\
-
Worthpoint show 'that' chair in all the rainbow colors showing up from 2006 onwards......likely the same ebay seller you posted links to.
Starting on Page 8, more on 9 and then two full pages of further listings......
http://www.worthpoint.com/inventory/search?offset=70&max=10&query=childs+chair+oak&categoryurl=&img=yes
But the age yours appears to show isn't something that could easily be reproduced. ;)
-
Pegged together, too. Sigh. :-\
-
Still searching for 'happier' results ;)
-
Me too. Not happening though. >:(
I may still take it with me in November to see what they think. At least they can teach me somethin'. Seems really hard to fake the age I see in person. If it turns out to be a modern chair, I'll definitely never buy anything wooden again. I'll stick to things that can't be faked or buy from a reputable place. There was a reason it didn't get snatched up on ebay. We need to just cut off all trade with China, all they send us are poisonous toys and fake antiques. :P
Thank you for all the effort Sapphire. This is why I didn't give up on this thing, I had to know if it was new or 150 years old.
-
Hosman, maybe it is a genuine old Chinese child's chair which would explain some of the crude construction techniques. Everything from China is not junk, just the modern stuff made to look old. China has become the 'new' Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, etc.
-
If this chair is new, then someone put a ridiculous amount of time and effort into distressing it. It's very convincing. That seems like a whole lot of work for something that just sells on ebay for 9.99 plus shipping. That's not a good payoff for all that trouble. Also, I don't see why the L brackets and glue would have been added unless they were a genuine repair, so that it could still be used, not just another thing to make it look beat up. I think it's real.
-
However, they make lots of "new" things out of repurposed "old" items!
Still think yours wasn't made recently.
-
I have to agree. As mentioned earlier, I agree that too much effort went into repairs for it to be faked. It's a funny jumble of periods, but I think it's old enough that it has picked up pieces of each period it lived through and I don't think it was something that anyone would have thought would have survived as long as it has. Kind of a neat little survivor. :)
-
I'll get her looked at by somebody. Thanks for all the replies guys. Here's the seller's response to my construction inquiry on those multi-colored ones.
These have age but certainly not antiques. Mostly 1960-70's. All are pegged together with no nails. All have new distressed paint.
-
Oh my God, almost the EXACT same dimensions. Give or take half an inch. I am going to write and see how theirs are constructed. I really hope they say theirs are made with modern hardware because they have 5 of them. Then I'll know theirs are copies. If theirs are made with the same construction as mine then I'll know mine is a reproduction (since they have 5) and I'll be heartbroken! Their paint job does appear to be "distressed" rather than genuine wear. But still...
Hosman, me thinks you are getting all cited and frumpy for no reason at all with your thinking that your chair might be a recently distressed, ....... renovated, ........ copied, ...... fake, ...... or whatever, ..... and thus is not even a smidgen as old as you were hoping it was.
So, I would like to ask you a couple questions, to wit:
1. Really now, how much is your chair actually worth at auction or as a saleable item? $10, $16.50, $22.75, $36 or more? Surely not in the $100s.
2. Given the above market value, who in their right mind would labor diligently for a week or two or three to make that chair look extremely older than it really is? NOBODY in their right mind would.
Hosman, via the following picture from your Post #4, it is my honest and learned opinion that your chair is quite old and shows the “tale-tale signs” of many, many years of usage, neglect, misusage, fixes, re-fixes, etc.
And I say that because it would take an extremely good expert-expert to fake what I am seeing in that picture. And I really don’t think such a person would even waste their time thinking about do said.
Enjoy your chair as it is, it has a great story to tell. I am pretty sure if you start “fixing on it” you will end up throwing it in the trash.
Cheers, Sam C
-
There are lots of great old rustic Chinese pieces that came from farms in the countryside. It is interesting that although the chairs on Worthpoint are very similar, they are not exact copies, which makes me think that although once upon a time somebody was probably churning these out by the dozens or the hundreds, but that they were made individually, like by a guy in his shop.
If this were my chair, I would contact John and Eugene at [urlhttp://www.chineseantiquefurnitureshop.com/[/url] and show them your photos. They are very nice and very helpful. They have helped me with several items that I have. They also have a whole series of online free videos on their site about determining age spotting fakes etc. John also posts here now and then.