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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: wdtanner on October 20, 2010, 12:52:27 pm
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Hi all. I'm searching the internet looking for clues on how much I should ask for a presentation piece I was given. I have it listed on craig's list already because frankly, I'm in need of the cash being a 36 year old father of three who's just returned to college full time.
Anyway - I'm finding that there are really no people who can appraise this piece here in my town, and I'm not finding anything exactly like this through my (hours of) google searching. I've had one person give me a ballpark retail price after looking at pictures, but I'd like a few more folks to lay eyes on it and let me know what they think.
I've posted a link to the craigslist ad below. The ad provides detailed descriptions and pictures. If anyone cares to give their input, I'd be most grateful. And if anyone is interested in making an offer, I'd be even more grateful. ;) Any questions, feel free to post them here or private message or via craigslist.
http://westky.craigslist.org/atq/2014695096.html (http://westky.craigslist.org/atq/2014695096.html)
Thanks for your time!
Dan Tanner
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Nice looking pitcher. The pics are not clear enough or BIG enough to decipher the engraving or the marks. Are you sure the name is Hatzman as it looks like Matzman or something to me? If the engraving has any historical significance, it would add to the value. I would research this before selling it. You may or may not be losing $$$. Some forum members are very knowledgeable with silver objects and may be able to help out as soon as they see your post.
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Here are the original images. I did a bit of research on the names but didn't find much.
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f377/meanson/IMG_1381.jpg)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f377/meanson/IMG_1377.jpg)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f377/meanson/IMG_1378.jpg)
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I am thinking this may have been a christening/baptismal pitcher from Louisville, Kentucky for the lucky parents Mr. & Mrs. Jacob Hatzmann but I am not real familiar with religious formalities of the time period. Just a guess. What size is the pitcher and are you in Kentucky?
I see you are in western Kentucky by the craigslist ad.
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I did see the name Jacob Hatzmann in my research - from a census website, I think. But I've never done any research like this, so I didn't know how to put two & two together like you just did.
Yes, I'm in Western KY - Paducah to be exact. If my story is right, my mother got this pitcher at a yardsale or antique store here in town quite a few years ago.
The size of the pitcher is 12" tall, from base to top of the lid and approximately 22" in diameter at its widest point. And it's HEAVY for its size - from the porcelain within, no doubt.
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Dan found this one same year but june 13 #194 http://cgi.ebay.com/rogers-smith-co-porcelain-lined-silver-pitcher-pot-/180542609582?pt=antique_silver
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Oh wow - neat. That one's super clean looking too. I don't DARE to clean this thing, simply because I'm not 100% sure what it's made of or how to clean whatever it is. So mine definitely needs a little love - but I'm not qualified to give it.
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Dan found this one same year but june 13 #194 http://cgi.ebay.com/rogers-smith-co-porcelain-lined-silver-pitcher-pot-/180542609582?pt=antique_silver
By the way - was this your ebay posting or someone else's? I thought I might contact that person to see if they might want to add this mine to their collection.
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Hmmm... If I had to guess, assuming that it came from KY, it could be a wedding gift to John and Lousie Hatzmann. In the 1900 KY Census they are shown as being married for 20 years... or 1880. I have a copy of the record if you would like it - just private message me your email and am happy to send... That said, it's only a guess. It's an extremely nice gift for the time so you understanding who John was and/or Louise's family could add value. There may be an inventory of their wills that is attainable (or even on-line) that could help establish ownership. I'm pretty unfamiliar with 20th century inventories so I'm not sure if it would be out there or not....
I don't have time to research now but will try more later. In the meantime.. Here's some info:
John Hatzmann
Home in 1900: Louisville Ward 4, Jefferson, Kentucky
Age: 51
Birth Date: Apr 1850
Birthplace: Kentucky
Race: White
Gender: Male
Relationship to Head of House: Head
Father's Birthplace: Germany
Mother's Birthplace: Germany
Spouse's name: Louise Hatzmann
Marriage Year: 1880
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 20
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Nope not my listing
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Makes sense, Oceans, to be a wedding gift. I thought if it was small it would be something else but the size precludes that. Was the saying "Compliments to" a common wedding saying for the period? If it was, I think you have nailed it.
Uhh, the IGI index is showing an 1882 marriage date for John & Louise Hatzmann, so I do not think that is the right Hatzmann/event or their records are off.
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IGI records are notoriously (and I hate to say this) wrong.... The info I posted came from a census record which is "from the horses mouth" so to speak and far more reliable. Latter Day Saints (AKA Mormons) have contributed so much to helping those who find the hobby of Genealogy fun so I hate to ever speak poorly of the work but you also have to under stand the source. Many of the IGI records come from undocumented family histories that have been sealed by the church which comes from family histories. My own family history sealed by the church is incorrect and I believe that information was taken off a web site 10 years ago...
That said, I think it would take a search of the KY archives to find a marriage record. I can't find one in the databases I have searched thus far. I emailed a KY Hatzman researcher to see if he has this couple in his family... It looks as tho they did drop one of the "n"'s in latter years...
Also as far as "compliments to..." I haven't a clue and have never been so lucky as to come across anything so personal in my own history... I keep going back to this being a REALLY nice gift and one that would be an extravegance...
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I could give you lots of info on Rogers, Smith Co, but basically they were located in New Haven between the years 1862 - 1877, they moved around a bit and was all part of the great gobbling up of silver Co. Based on the marks it would fall into that date frame. The really unique ones can warrant a pretty good price, The range you have selected. However keep in mind you mentioned some damage. Most collectors are really picky about the condition of a item. I have sold a few pots and the ones with only a small amount of damage, I was hard press to get even $20.00 for. Lots and Lots of silverplate items and compitation is extreamly high, seems everybody nowdays has inherited their Grandparents set. You item is for sure a fancy and nice pot, but damage will chop the price alot. As mentioned if that monogram on the pot has some historical story then it will Add value, without any monogram or marking as such really only hurts the value even more. I do wish you luck on the sale of your item, but I think you are looking at maybe $75.00 max. IMO Thanks for posting
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Interesting information Oceans. It makes genealogical research more difficult.
This pitcher makes one wonder how much it cost when new and the status of the giver and receiver. I would assume, in its' day, the price of this pitcher equaled a good day's, week's, or month's wages? To purchase it one would have to had the means and also must have thought very highly of Mr. & Mrs. Hatzmann. It is too bad the meaning of the gift has been lost and this once prized object was sold at a yard sale or antique store (an auction purchase perhaps?).
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This is becoming very fascinating. Like I said, this is my first step into the realm of antiques, collecting and genealogy research. I'm amazed at what you folks are coming up with in such a small amount of time.
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I will try to look more this afternoon... It looks to me that John (below) is actually Joseph. Whoever transcribed the census at Ancestry.com got it wrong IMO so Joseph m. Louise in 1880. I'm starting to get a picture of this family but i only have minutes at a time so bear with me...
In the 1900 census Joseph is listed as a Cigar maker as was his son. I believe he may have been in business with his brother John Hatzman. Their father's name was John and he was a grocer...
Keep in mind, all of this is preliminary but perhaps you would know if Cigar making is still a good business in Kentucky, particularly Louisville or Jefferson County
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The poor college student in me kicked in and I posted this on ebay, in case anyone's interested. I love learning about it and would really like to track down this family - but the sad fact is I need the money. I recently left my 10-year career in the IT field to attend college on the GI bill, and let's just say that depending on the government for your paycheck is not always the best idea. They don't really care if you have three kids & a pile of bills... ... rant, rant, rant - sorry :)
Anyway - here's the ebay listing if anyone's interested.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160496880104&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
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ETA: HA!!! I think we posted at the same time... Can you post a link to the item and I'll let the researcher know in case he's interested.
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I heard back from the Hatzman researcher. The original/probable owner of this pitcher was a brother of his Great Grandfather. As far as I can tell, he is the only one researching the Hatzaman family which is unfortunate and far as a “market” for this piece. Here was his response…
Hi. If I am correct, the John (Joseph) Hatzman that you are referring to is a distant cousin. He is my great grandfather's brother. My great grandfather was Jacob Hatzman. My records show that (he) was born 12/28/1858 and died 1/21/1938 in Covington (Kenton County) Kentucky. Apparently he was married a short time to a Louisa Hunt. They had one son together. John Hunt Hatzman who died in 1943 at age 56.
Hope this helps.
I have a bit more information for you on the entire family. Unfortunately, this marriage ended in divorce which may or may not explain the garage sale (still no excuse IMO!! lol). The info is mostly from Census records… (1880, 1990, 1910) Keep in mind while reading that Joseph is the (probable) owner of the pitcher…
The earliest info I have on this family is from 1880 Louisville KY Census. John Hatzmann Sr is listed as Keeping a Grocery. He was b. abt 1830 in Naussau (Germany). His father and mother were from Germany. He was married to Katie (Surname unknown). Katie was born in Apr 1835 in Hessen (Germany) and immigrated to this country in 1848 (Source: 1900C). John Sr. and Katie listed 3 children:
John Jr who was b. in KY about 1859 and worked in a Cigar Shop
Nelly who was b. in KY about 1876. She was adopted according to the census
Joseph who was b. in KY about 1863 and was attending school in 1880.
Also living in the same district was:
Jacob Hatzmann who was b. about 1856. He was married to Mary (Surname unknown) and had a daughter Katie who was born in KY about 1878. Jacob is the son of John Sr. and Katie (above)
There is no 1890 Federal Census as it was lost in a fire…
In the 1900 Louisville KY Census we have…
Kate Hatzmann is now widowed. In her lifetime she claims to have had 6 children and now only 4 were living. She was listed as living with a son Andrew who was 33 years old (b. Apr 1866). It’s interesting that Andrew was not listed in the 1880 census 20 years prior. It may be that he was adopted after 1880.
Katie’s adopted daughter Nellie was also living at home with her mother. Nellie is listed as widowed and was using the last name Woodhead. Nellie had a son Franke who was 4 months old at the time.
There is no evidence in KY of John Hatzmann Jr in KY. I am going to guess he died sometime between the 1880 Census and 1900.
Jacob and his second wife is listed along with other family members.
Joseph (John on the transcription at Ancestry.com but the original record shows Joseph) was married to Louise (Louisa) Hunt for at least 20 years (1880). Louise was b. Apr 1860 in KY and her parents were from England. John and Louise had 3 children in their marriage but only 2 were living. Louise was the daughter of Agnes (father) and Hendreker/Fredreker (Mother). They owned a small dairy farm.
The children of Louise and Joseph were: A daughter Henrietta. She was b. in KY in Oct 1883 and a son John who was b. in KY in May 1886. Joseph was a Cigar Maker and his son John was also listed as making Cigars. His daughter Henrietta was listed as a bookkeeper. There is a good chance this is a family business in my opinion.
By 1910, Louise is living with her daughter “Nettie” and her son in law John C Lulanf/Lnlanf (sp??). John and Nettie (Henrietta) had no children. Louisa is listed as divorced on the census. In the 1911, Louisville, Kentucky 1911 City Directory Page 0534 she is listed as “Widowed” but not unusual to fib a little about this due to the stigmatism of divorce.
I can’t find Joseph in the 1910C but here is where you would rely on family info from the email above…
Let me know if you have any questions, best of luck.
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Ha! That's a pretty funny bit of timing there.
And again - I'm absolutely amazed at what you're able to come up with in such a short time. The internet really is an amazing thing - as is YOUR ability to decipher the facts you've found with it. I've always been a hardcore Google junkie - for example, I've had no formal college, but have made my way in a pretty technical field (IT) for ten years now on power of Google alone (up until quitting for school, that is).
Be careful. You guys are going to turn me into an addict.
Oh, and on a serious note - thanks so much for putting time into looking into this for me!
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Oceans, You deserve a virtual gold star for that little gem of a piece of research!