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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: talesofthesevenseas on November 16, 2010, 06:02:45 pm
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Look what I found at the thrift store today! I thought it had to be a repro, but it doesn't appear to be. I saw it, said "Oh dear God!" grabbed it quick and paid $5.50 for it! I think I've got myself an 1890's "low-brow" chinahead that I think may have a replacement cloth body wired and stuffed with sawdust.
First I looked at the condition of the head- a few tiny paint rubs and chips, one little black mark by her corner of her mouth which looks to be very typical of the little scars these dolls can get when they are fired in the kiln. There are a couple of others on the back of her shoulders. The porcelain doesn't look modern, there are tiny flaws and imperfections in the glaze. It's hard to see in the photos but they are little bumps and dimples under th glaze:
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Chinahead1.jpg)
She was dressed in a 1960's-looking homemade pants outfit that was sewn closed. I had to open the seam at the neck to get the body out.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Chinahead2.jpg)
Underneath she had a set of homemade underwear on, that seems to be made from mom's 1960's girdle.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Chinahead3.jpg)
The body looks to be a combination of machine and hand stitching. The seems in the body look like they are machine stitched, very uniform and close together. However the stitching to attach the limbs is definitely hand-stitched and some is coming loose. It is also hand-stitched around the legs where they are attached. I was hoping to see more wear and staining on the body, which is what makes me think it may be a "doll hospital" replacement. You can see one of the internal wires poking out on her left leg, about mid-thigh. On the backs of the thighs the seams are off from each other, which again makes me think this is either an original body in very good shape or repair shop's replacement. The seams are on the backs of the thighs, not on the sides.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Chinahead6.jpg)
This is what has me pretty certain she is not a repro- Under the clothing the shoulders are marked "Germany" and it's stamped in the porcelain and glazed over. From what I have read so far, the vast majority of these dolls were made in Germany and the glaze has a lot of the little bumps and dimples you typically see on these chinaheads. It isn't perfect and uniform like a modern repro. Also I haven't seen repros with these feverishly burnng cheeks like this one has. That was my first clue that this might be authentic was those cheeks. Repros usually have more of a subtle pink blush that people like better nowadays. There are bits of old glue flaking and coming out from under the head. Also another clue that if this is a replacement body it was done quite some time ago. By the 1890's I think the bodies would have been machine sewn though, so I'm not entirely sure.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Chinahead4.jpg)
The legs look very authentic with big bulbous calves and painted blue ribbons and brown shoes. There is an repair to one leg, pretty severe break glued back together, also some remenants of old glue visible around the break. The forearms are also bulbous. The forearms are unglazed, unlike the legs and head. (I have another chinahead that is this way too so I think these are the original arms)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Chinahead5.jpg)
I think she's the real thing but would like to get your feedback on what you think.
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WOW Tales!!! I know nothing about this but can't wait to see where this thread goes... What section did you find her in?
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The "Collectables" section, which is kind of a mix of antiques and non-antiques. I'm sure they thought she was a repro or they would have priced her higher than $5.50.
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Awesome score tales! She sure looks and sounds real! I'll be happy to watch and see where this goes, too.
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Found some good info on identifying authentic vs. repro:
http://dollreference.com/china_head_dolls.html (http://dollreference.com/china_head_dolls.html)
http://reviews.ebay.com/Antique-China-Dolls-dating-and-detecting-repros_W0QQugidZ10000000000851149 (http://reviews.ebay.com/Antique-China-Dolls-dating-and-detecting-repros_W0QQugidZ10000000000851149)
Apparently Hertwig used the "Germany" mark and it's in the right place, low on the shoulder.
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Nice find, Tales, but I know nothing about dolls. I hope it is old.
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I found a local doll hospital place. I may run it in next week, that's probably a good way to sort out what is old and what isn't.
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I am slowly trying to get through the eBay ones. I haven't seen one with shading around the eyes. Have you read anything about that? I figure eBay for mostly repro TBH. Maybe need to find a collector site but now.... I'm thinking out loud ;D
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I am not seeing the shading on the eyes either, not on antique or repro. I think because the faces are hand-painted on that there is a lot of variation to them. It is hard to even tell if I've got the same mold model as some because the little variations in painting gives them each a different look. I think you're right I'll need to do some posting on a collectors forum or run her in to the doll hospital place to get a good idea of what she is.
...and in the meantime I guess I'll be sewing doll clothes, LOL!
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Tales I also think the body has been replaced but very very well done!! I have seen some German dolls with the eye sockets heavily shadowed and as you said each artist had diffrent techniques. I believe you are close with dating and if I had to guess I would also say Hertwig. I think you have a little boy, Head & legs look original but something about the arms looks off. The blue painting on the legs are garter bands tied bows. best bet like you said would be to run it over to your local doll hospital place for a hands on look and let us know what you find.
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Don't know beans about Dolls except for the tid bits I picked up here, but could not help but notice the really cool Blue Colbalt Glass on the floorboard ;)
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IronLord, that was the other thrift store find today- a cobalt blue cassarole dish!
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*Whew!!* It's 12:30, but I finished the dress, thought I'd show you guys how it turned out:
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Chinahead9.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Chinahead7.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Chinahead8.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Chinahead10.jpg)
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Very nice dress Tales. How did you do that w/o a pattern? You are quite a seamstress!!!
I do have to ask tho.... What if Wendy's right and it's a boy???
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It's a fancy boy then, Oceans. A very fancy boy.
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With a penchant for fine gowns ;)
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I think its a pretty safe bet that it is a girl doll. The hair style is typical of this type of chinahead and from everything I can see she is a very common type, nothing unusual. Boy dolls are much more rare. I had fun doing the dress, I learned a lot from having sewn my own bustle dress last year and just kinda winged it.
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I do have to say you are pretty talented, Tales and that dress looks very nice! Looks like a whole different doll with that outfit on. $5.50 was bargain.
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I couldn't agree more... That would have taken me forever to do with half as good of results...
BTW Wayward, you made me choke on my coffee earlier... lololol!!!
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The only image I could conjur up was that of Poppycock from America's Got Talent. Now there was a Dandy but very talented!
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We LOVED Poppycock!!!!!! Makes me smile just thinking of him. If he doesn't deserve a Vegas show then I don't know who does. I have a feeling he's had more than a few offers.
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I got an ID on the doll from a doll forum:
"I say you found an antique treasure. She looks to me to be by Hertwig and Company of Germany. This company used stone bisque lower arms that have odd cupped hands. If you look closely at them, there is no definite thumb, so the right and left hands were interchangable (and certainly sped up things at the factory). The legs with the glazed greenish-brown boots are also the type found on Hertwig dolls (they could be replacements, but they are appropriate). Hertwig produced these dolls well into the 1920s and they had machine stitched bodies (the blushing was applied with an airbrush, which suggests this is a later doll). Often the limbs become loose, so someone may have tightened up the lower legs. The body (with the internal wiring), looks like bodies I have had on Hertwig dolls. If she was dressed and well-cared for, it is possible that the body would have little or no wear or staining."
So it looks like she's a little younger than I thought but all original! YAY!!
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Wow Tales Congrats!!! That's awesome ;D
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Thanks I'm pretty jazzed about this one. I never in a million years thought I would find one of these mislabled like this.
This thrift store is a little different from most. It is run by a drug rehab program and it is one of the few that doesn't seem to pick through stuff and put them into online auctions. It's about the only one I've been in recently that still carries antiques. I saw a lady leaving with a glass washboard the same day. This place also gets a lot of cobalt blue stuff, so I've been stopping in there a lot.
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Geeze tales, I want to visit that store.
We'll be in your area in June! :P
If it was made in the 20's it's still close to 100 years old, so I'd say it was worth your $5.50.
I loved Poppycock, too! His final act was pretty disappointing but that Yankee Doodle act was simply amazing!
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Sorry for the hijack, but for anyone who missed it. :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXckWBqq6g8&feature=fvst
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Oops, I missed your dress tales, great job!! But now that it's in the dress, it does look a bit like a cross-dresser. :D Did we determine yet if it's a boy or a girl?
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LOL the same could be said of me the way my super-short hair looks these days!! No one has said anything about it being a boy and she's also got a corseted waist so I don't think it's likely.
Will you be here the first Sunday in June? If so we should meet up and go to the Alameda Point Antiques Faire, it's a big one:
http://www.alamedapointantiquesfaire.com/ (http://www.alamedapointantiquesfaire.com/)
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You know, I think we may actually be there the first week in June! I need to check. We're going for my sister-in-law's high school graduation in Coalinga. It's about 2 1/2 hours away from you but he has lots of family in your area so we usually go while we're down there. Problem is that nobody in his family remotely cares about history or antiques. :-\ So, if we drive, maybe we can go on the way down there or on the way back. Looks wonderful!
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It is a good one, and I've only been to it once so far, so I would love to go again. Keep me posted on how your plans shape up. I'm supposed to take a trip around that time myself but it isn't firmly scheduled so if you think you could do this, I'll work the other trip around it. It would be fun to spend the day treasure hunting with ya!
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Dangit, checked the high school website and it looks like graduation is June 16th. We'll be too late. :(
If you're ever in Washington or Oregon let me know! The Palmer Wirfs show was great and they have it in both states.
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We should still get together for lunch while you are here!
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Sounds great, I'll let you know what's up when time gets closer. We're not very good trip planners. We just kind of wait until the last second and leave. Although I think he already asked for the time off from work so I'm proud of him for doing that much. :P
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O.k. just bought my first doll thanks to this thread, and Tales. Was as the thrift store, my favorite goodwill and walk into the collectible section and wow I found one of them their fancy dolls call a low brow. I did not get it as cheap, had to pay $15.00, but I knew what is was. I was a bit weird have all those people stare at me looking up the dolly dress and lookin down the well. Felt like the whole store was watching and laughing at me :D :D :D Actually wasn't that bad but sound good on paper at least. I did get a smile from the guy behind me in line, as I was gleeful and happy with me new dolly. ;D Anyway her she is my first Doll
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Wow! Way nice!! And your post was so funny, I just read it aloud to my husband, who also got a good laugh out of it!
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It is raining dolls on the West Coast! Nice pick, ironlord!
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Boy this poor thing was violated more than once yesterday... I had a good look too :) At least you wont have to sew her a dress! Her body was also machine stitched in parts and hand sewn in others. I found a good page for faces earlier... I'll try to find again & post.
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Here is the forum that helped me ID my chinahead:
http://forums.ebay.com/db1/forum.jspa?forumID=18 (http://forums.ebay.com/db1/forum.jspa?forumID=18)