Author Topic: Antique Bavaria Tea Set  (Read 18106 times)

frogpatch

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Re: Antique Bavaria Tea Set
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2011, 06:43:34 pm »
In my opinion it appears to have the look of many wares produced in the US and abroad just before WWII. Anything from Germany after WWII would say West Germany and not Bavaria. If it were made in Japan the McKinley tariff act would require the country of origin to be on the pieces. Bavaria could be considered a country of origin prior to WWII just as Bohemia was. If you look at a lot of US wares from that period from Knowles or Homer Laughlin they look very similar with the period dressed figures. I wouldd say it was made in Germany for the US market in the 30s. Just my opinion.

mart

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Re: Antique Bavaria Tea Set
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2011, 07:12:43 pm »
You are correct frogpatch but,,the Mckinley tariff act I believe was made effective in 1912, if I remember correctly !! It was not strictly enforced until the 50`s or so and they made all imports be marked with "Made in Japan" instead of just the country  !! Prior to that you could get by with almost anything !! Thats why there are so many fake marks around !! Go to Chris`s site and look at all the fakes that he has documented !!  And I would bet there are more than that !!  I could be wrong but I am still betting on a Japanese producer !!  The reason I don`t think it was made in Germany is the quality of the gold trim !! Even cheap German wares are well done from what I have seen !! This one doesn`t look like it is from the pics available !!

frogpatch

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Re: Antique Bavaria Tea Set
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2011, 03:35:11 pm »
You may be right Mart. We may never know for sure.

mart

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Re: Antique Bavaria Tea Set
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2011, 06:24:26 pm »
Hopefully Chris will stop by sometime and solve the mystery !!  I am quite curious about the mark myself !!

Chris_Marshall

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Re: Antique Bavaria Tea Set
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2011, 04:14:05 am »
Hi all,

before I say something about the mark, let me try to clean out a bit of confusion here. Frogpatch said:

... Anything from Germany after WWII would say West Germany and not Bavaria. If it were made in Japan the McKinley tariff act would require the country of origin to be on the pieces. Bavaria could be considered a country of origin prior to WWII just as Bohemia was. ...

[1]: The McKinley Tariff Act (MKTA), taking a detour via the British Merchandise Act (BMA):

The term 'Made in Germany' came into being thanks to the British Parliament which passed the 'British Merchandise Act' on August 23rd 1887 in order to protect the British market from German imports. It required that all goods from Germany had to carry an unremovable mark with the wording 'Made in Germany'. Today we of course know that the whole act backfired because what was originally intended as a branding mark finally became a free trademark and the epitome of a seal of quality or warranty for good value. And of course a few years later - especially after the revision of the US McKinley Tariff Act - manufacturers all over the world started to adapt this form of marking. The 'Made in' prefix by the way never was a requirement of the US rules and regulations or the McKinley Tariff Act regardless of what people claim.

On October 1st 1890 the Congress of the United States passed the so-called 'McKinley Tariff Act', a law that was introduced by the 25th President, William McKinley. This law not only imposed the highest tariffs that the United States had ever placed on imports it also demanded that regardless of country of origin all items imported to the US had to be marked as such, 'FOREIGN' (**). The act was later revised in two steps and while the first allowed the real country of origin to be used, based on the fact that Great Britain had already forced Germany to use 'Made in Germany' for their goods. The second change in 1921 introduced the regulation that only standard English terms and characters were legit. This was needed as Japan had started marking with 'Nippon' (September 1st 1891 - 1921) and the in 1918 newly-founded state of Czechoslovakia had started to use foreign characters ('Cechoslovakia' on marks 1918-1920).

(**) Note: "Foreign' as such was later in history re-used, cloaking the original country of origin for various reasons (and not only for export to the USA!). After the attack on Pearl Harbour, some Japanese manufacturers used 'Foreign' instead of 'Japan', just like some German manufacturers used 'Foreign' during the later war years and following WW2. Post-1949 East German manufacturers used it for exort to West-Block countries just like West German manufacturers used it for export on items for the Eastern Block. Some examples of West German ceramics (from the so-called 'Mid-Century Modern' era) can be found to show 'Foreign' markings, some products were marked as such right up to around 1972. Conclusion: a mere 'Foreign' marking does not indicate a specific manufacturer, country of origin or even a certain period - it has always to be seen in context.

[2]: The confusion regarding the various forms of German post-1949 markings:

Following the founding of the two German states in October 1949 the western manufacturers saw themselves confronted with a problem. At that time and under economic/quality aspects the reputation of everything marked 'Made in Germany' was very high, on the other hand it was known that the whole system of production in regions influenced by the Soviets was less than adequate. Believing that the split of the two states was no more than a temporary solution and one should hold open a back door, the manufacturers in the Federal Republic of Germany thought it would be a good idea to use 'Western Germany' as that was near enough to the old 'Germany' but also implied western world orientation and distanced them from the sub-standard Soviet-influenced East German side. The German Democratic Republic countered by starting to use 'Eastern Germany' and the 'name race' started with all its twists and (partially funny) turns. After the fall of the Wall in November 1989 and the official German reunification on October 3rd 1990 all companies nearly instantly used 'Made in Germany' again. The only thing you can be really sure about is that a product marked with any kind of East/West German designator can only have been made sometime between 1950 and 1990. No more, no less.

Against what is commonly claimed by various 'collectors' and 'experts' one should know that some East German companies at first continued to use '(Made in) Germany' even during their time in the German Democratic Republic; some even up until 1972. The interest of some sellers in keeping these facts low is obvious as many people want to sell their items off as been made before 1949 (and hence being more desireable) even if they were made much later. Now as for roughly pre-dating all these items, two guidelines apply:

[a] A first placement for an item of a single manufacturer can be found by taking into mind the general mark development over time, for example any given western manufacturer used a 'W.-Germany' mark later than a 'Made in West Germany' mark. Also remember that the prefix 'Made in' as part of the mark was at that time often seen optional so its use can change according to free space on the item, mark design or other preferences. All that can be boiled down to the following short and painless list, evolving over time from left to right:

    - (Made in) Western Germany => (Made in) West Germany => (Made in) W.-Germany
    - (Made in) Eastern Germany => (Made in) East Germany => (Made in) German Democratic Republic => (Made in) GDR

Dating items is only possible when one knows the marking procedures of the specific company as each of them had their own internal timeline. For example some factories used 'Western Germany' on some items right up to 1976 while other manufacturers had long dropped that it in favour of 'West Germany' or 'W. Germany'.

[3]: Markings simply stating 'Bavaria'

If one takes a look at the term "United States of America" one sees that the USA is a federation (read as: United Sub-States) - lots of smaller, single (and more or less independent) states united under one law/legislation. Germany was (and is) exactly the same and even it's predecessor, the Prussian Empire, was nothing more than a bunch of united sub-states. One should note that Bavaria in all periods (Prussian Empire, later Germany) was always a free, independent state. While it never belonged to the Prussian Empire, it did join what later should become the Federal Republic of Germany, always pointing out its special status as "Freistaat" ('free state'). As such, it always had the right to use 'Bavaria' as single (country of origin) mark. Bavarians as such are a proud little bunch, and even up until today they never fail to point out that they are true "Germans" while the rest of the German states merely represent "Saupreißn" ('Prussian pigs') ... sounds rough, but it's actually not seen as an insult per definition. After all 'we' (the rest of Germany) all know that Bavarians are merely white sausage suckers that prance around in Lederhosen, LOL!

Anyway, marks with 'Bavaria' - just like the combinations "Germany / Bavaria" used by Hutschenreuther or Rosenthal - can not be dated to specific periods. On the other hand one should hold in mind that 'Bavaria' as such was sometimes used just like 'Foreign' for export purposes ... in periods in which 'Germany'-marked items were seen as politically incorrect in the corresponding target country, 'Bavaria'-marked items always dropped below RADAR and were accepted. As side-note one should hold in mind that even today, many people disregard items made in the Republic of China (P.R.O.C.) while freely accepting items marked 'Made in Taiwan' ... even if Taiwan is nothing more than an offshore substate of China.

[4] The mark in question (finally!)

As noted in previous posts, the overall quality can be positioned far behind common German items. While there are indeed cases in which a country of origin mark was illegally misused by an Asian manufacturer (the typical 'Austria'-marked trash comes into mind), there were also many 'manufacturers' in Germany that specialized on very cheap items like souvenir-ware. I put emphasis on 'manufacturers' as the business models involved were sometimes restricted to mere (re)decoration of goods purchased all over the place, including Japan and China. One of these 'manufacturers' was the factory commonly known as 'Royal Porzellan'.

This business started off in the Bavarian town of Küps as Porzellanmanufaktur Klaus Cutik (1960 - 1973) and later resulted in the Royal Porzellan GmbH (1973-1996). Cutik himself actually at one time had been partner of the renown 'Bauer & Lehmann' decoration studio; his first 'own' marks were therefore impersonations of the old 'Bauer & Lehmann' marks. Finding hard facts about Cutik/Royal Porzellan is real hard as both companies for themselves constantly changed names (even on bills, depending on customer!) and turned turtle more than once. They respected the demands of certain customers that required custom-made markings but the sheer number of marks they used normally is a direct result of they "floating" business model - each time they accumulated enough angry customers, they simply refounded the business under a new name or new proprietor.

So far I know of over 30 different marks used by Cutik/Royal Porzellan while most reference books mostly only show two to four (if any); shown set was 'made' during the Cutik period (1960-1973), however one should hold in mind that Royal Porzellan still sold surplus from Cutik 'production' years later. Due to its origin (and quality) the resales price for the set would be pretty low (not worth the effort) as one can still buy such sets on every second flea market in Germany for a few Euro.

mart

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Re: Antique Bavaria Tea Set
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2011, 09:25:28 am »
That was quite a history lesson !!  Thanks Chris !!  Was much information that I didn`t know and truthfully it conflicted with what I had read on a few sites about dates for the McKinley tariff act !!  So from what you are saying,, it is German from between 1960 and 1973 and minimal value !!   

mart

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Re: Antique Bavaria Tea Set
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2011, 09:38:16 am »
Hey Frogpatch !! You win !!  I would have bet my bottom dollar on Japanese import,, LOL !!

le tank

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Re: Antique Bavaria Tea Set
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2015, 09:01:26 am »
i got one different i like to know if its a copy or not mine got the logo (krown ) wrote fine porcelaine publisher furher cartsbad
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 09:21:59 pm by le tank »

KC

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Re: Antique Bavaria Tea Set
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2015, 09:43:05 am »
Try searching "GLORIA FINE PORCELAIN FRUHER KARLSBAD, Germany" and you will find a whole lot of gilded tea sets, tea cups, etc. 

Believe this is the company!
http://gloriaporcelain.com/?q=about
I'm from the South - but please don't mistake my Southern Manners/Accent/Charm as a weakness!

Catatrepa

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Re: Antique Bavaria Tea Set
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2018, 10:39:05 am »
It is from Franz Neukirchner, Waldershof, Germany, period 1925 - 1977

Pelady

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Re: Antique Bavaria Tea Set
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2018, 04:18:25 pm »
Nice to know.  Thanks for the info.  I wonder if the original poster ( Muffinmaman ) from 2011  is still active on the website?
Plymouth, America's Home Town.

ghopper1924

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Re: Antique Bavaria Tea Set
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2018, 05:24:33 pm »
"Last Active: August 20, 2012, 01:09:05 PM"


My guess would be "no."
"I collect antiques because they're beautiful."

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