2 old prints?

[tara1245]

Hello everyone, I just found and registered for this forum.  I would love to know a little more about this print, if anyone has any information.
Thanks, Tara
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3540/3668487387_3e75546b16_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3345/3669296826_99d7f26a6f_o.jpg

[D&b antiques]

Hard to say. it is a print because it's under glass. there rideing in a Gondala which are found in Venice italy. commonly used for taxi's to travail the water way's of Venice.

There's certainly a story to be told. we can see the minstrial & I would believe the lady in waiting. let's give the others a look see may be we can solve the mystery.

[tara1245]

Hi, thanks for looking at it.  I tried to take it out of the frame to see if there was a name or other info on it, but the paper is so delicate I thought it might crumble.  I'm not really interested in it's value, just curious as to the artist and time period associated with it.

[D&b antiques]

the frame it's self speak's of the 40's. but the hair do is colonial. none the less the print could have been reframed. at a later date.

[ayashe]

I think (LONG shot) that this is a scene from Mozart's opera 'Die Entführung aus dem Serail' aka: The Abduction from the Seraglio. It is set in Turkey. There is a scene in the opera where the Pasha (whom I think is the man in the middle of your print) has kidnapped Constanze (the betrothed of a Spanish nobleman who is seeking her out). In the opera, the Pasha and Constanze have both been out in a little pleasure boat with some musicians following in another boat. The musicians are meant to be playing wind instruments but your print looks to me like a romantic adaptation so the musician on the left in your print may be standing in for the musicians in the opera. Notice how the young lady on the right doesn't seem to be too keen on the advances of the man sitting next her? And their clothing is so different? Her clothes match the time when Mozart wrote the opera (1782) so this would be fitting and the man's clothes could be Turkish? I agree, the boat looks like a gondola like the ones in Venice but perhaps since it is romantic (possibly late Victorian?) then the style of boat could be left to the imagination. Here are some scenes from the opera that I think provide clues:

Constanze refusing the Pashas’ advances:
http://www.operatoday.com/ENTFUHRUNG_Kurzak_Sigmundss.png

A print depicting the two getting on a boat:
http://www.quizilla.com/user_images/D/DonRodrigo/1086413682_tabducted4.JPG

And a modern stage adaptation showing using a real boat on stage:
http://www.canvasmanagement.com/mm/cv/Ratto1Fantin.jpg

Turkish costumes from the opera:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2004/Jan-Apr04/seraglio1.jpg

The background (hard to see buildings, rocks?) in your print looks to be Turkish as the shoreline is quite rocky http://www.fotos.org.uk/turkey%20shoreline.jpg

And the instrument being played resembles a sitar, also commonly played in Turkey:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Sitar_1.gif

I would date this print to be around 1870’s perhaps… I’m not very good at this but I agree that the frame is from a much later date.

I hope my ramblings have helped. They might be altogether wrong, but that’s the first thing I thought of when I saw the print. Hope the links help and good luck! It’s a beautiful find in any case.

[regularjoe2]

Welcome to the forum , tara1245 .

I'd suggest that you remove the print from the frame and have the backing replaced with acid-free stock .
If you decide to do so , you'll preserve the print for many years to come , as well have the opportunity to photo-document the unseen elements of your item .
(O.K. , I want more info to go on too)

Through the years , I've seen MANY works on paper (originals & prints too) degrade horribly due to framing elements from non-acid free stocks , sometimes to the point of total loss.

Although highly stylized , it seems as if the boat is a dhow - possibly a Baggarah or Al Sambuq type , not a gondola (sails indicate this) .

ayashe :

I think you might be getting warm with your ideas about Constanze & relation to the subject in the print .

[tara1245]

Wow, I'm really glad I found this forum.   Ayashe, it's amazing you came up with all of that.  I will definitely look into this further.  What always intrigued me about it was that it seemed like it was part of a story with characters I knew nothing about.

I didn't realize the frame itself could be damaging the print.  Is there a place I could take it to have the acid free backing applied? 

My grandmother bought the print in a thrift store when she was 40, so that would have been over 50 years ago.  She also got a beautiful art deco J Willett print in an original frame at the same time.  I guess you could get some great things in thrift stores back then.

[KC]

Any reputable framing store can do the acid free backing for you.  You could do it as well if you take it S L O W L Y and get all your materials together prior to starting the project (Preparation, preparation, preparation).

If there is a possibility of the piece being extremely brittle and you do not have a light touch....stick with a reputable store.

Nice pics!

[tara1245]

Thanks.  I'm going to take it to a frame shop and watch how they do it for future reference.  Normally I wouldn't mind doing it myself, but yeah, it's very brittle and I don't want to chance it.

[D&b antiques]

Keep us posted, as to your progress. the framer might find something of interest.

[regularjoe2]

I'm going to make a fool of myself (again) and make a preliminary guess that the print may be from (or 'after') David Roberts' (1796-1864) early work from the Covent Garden comissions c1827 , for the London opera house .
His works were heavily published & 'recopied' , due to his popularity during the Victorian era.
His prints are still selling , albeit modern ones , in the present day .

Here's a self-portrait of old dave attached .
I've also tossed in another with a dhow , for the heck of it ( both of these are from his non-theatrical & later works )....

[tara1245]

That's funny, David Roberts is the artist I kept coming up with on google in association with that opera.  Apparently his set designs for 'The Abduction from the Seraglio' were destroyed by a rival.  That would be so great if the print was styled on those early set designs.

[regularjoe2]

Yes , tara1245 , that's the story that has been around for awhile ....

the rest of the story , according to my reliable Limey pals , is that not everything from that series did  get trashed .

I still want to see if your print has got a sig that can be identified , though .

Glad to see you're doing research !

[ayashe]

How exciting, it's always fun when the history of something begins to reveal itself. Please keep us updated if you get the print removed from the frame... I can't wait to see if it's what we think it is!

[tara1245]

The problem with taking it out of the frame it's that the print is sort of wedged into the frame a bit, so it will take a bit of pressure to lift it up. 
I don't think there is any signature or marking on it though. I can see almost all of the print through the glass.

I found a website for a gallery that deals in old prints -http://www.philaprintshop.com/. If you send them photographs through the mail they will let you know if what you have is something they're familiar with. I thought I'd post it in case anyone else has an old print they can't identify.  I'll let you guys know if they come up with anything.