If i remember my reading right, Meissen is about the most famous of the Blue Onion pattern, sometimes or originally called bulb I think. I did notice under the Thun mark on the first one it says Form Meissen, maybe refer to a pattern or giving Meissen credit for the pattern but done by Count Thun. Count thun being Czech and Messien being germany, they are kind of Sister and Brother. The only true Meissen mark would be cross swords. As for the date, Tales found the one, I would say the other is close to the same age, based on the other marks on the back.