Author Topic: Staffordshire Deep Blue Commemorative Dish  (Read 9322 times)

mart

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Re: Staffordshire Deep Blue Commemorative Dish
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2015, 08:31:50 pm »
Have you measured this dish Ghopper to match with the size given by the expert if its the same piece ?? Seems the more I look at it the less right it looks for the 1825 date !!  But it could well have been in the family for over 100 years if it was made in 1900 for the American market rather than 1825 !!  That's a 75 year difference !!  And the expert is just talking about the pattern,,not this particular dish so it still could have been made later !!

ghopper1924

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Re: Staffordshire Deep Blue Commemorative Dish
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2015, 09:23:45 pm »
This is a vegetable dish, not a platter. However, it matches the others I've found, even if a few details are different, all of which are dated to that time.

I have a further inquiry in to them and to Winterthur as well, regarding the pattern as it occurs on vegetable dishes, but at this point it seems like some folks are working overtime to call it modern or new, which it clearly is not. Now Transferware hobbyists have gone public on Facebook to say that this is a ca. 1825 pattern - NOT a pattern from 1825 reproduced in 1900 or 2015 - and I have no reason to disbelieve it, no matter how "horrid" the underside may look. I would imagine that if this piece were "wrong" they would have mentioned it, but I've inquired back just in case.

 Other developments as they occur.
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mart

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Re: Staffordshire Deep Blue Commemorative Dish
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2015, 04:34:22 am »
Not working overtime but with different opinions posted many take a second look !!

mart

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Re: Staffordshire Deep Blue Commemorative Dish
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2015, 04:42:06 am »
I'm talking about clews. I have seen same pieces as yours at flea markets and antique shops. There is not a lot of value. Like the previous member above you can find these online also. I have seen these listed before to 60 to 80 dollars even with the same "scroll" symbol on the bottom. There pretty common.

This is not the piece with the scroll symbol !!  That was the Staffordshire pitcher/creamer !!

ghopper1924

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Re: Staffordshire Deep Blue Commemorative Dish
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2015, 05:44:23 am »
I'm talking about clews. I have seen same pieces as yours at flea markets and antique shops. There is not a lot of value. Like the previous member above you can find these online also. I have seen these listed before to 60 to 80 dollars even with the same "scroll" symbol on the bottom. There pretty common.

This is not the piece with the scroll symbol !!  That was the Staffordshire pitcher/creamer !!

I know, right? Let's keep our threads straight. :)
"I collect antiques because they're beautiful."

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ghopper1924

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Re: Staffordshire Deep Blue Commemorative Dish
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2015, 09:32:53 am »
Winterthur weighs in.

 It pays to stick to your guns :)

"Dear Mr. ******
,
What a wonderful piece! We do have three versions of this dish in our collection, but one in particular is a very close match to yours. In our record, we have the following notes:

Created exclusively for export to America, this plate probably was designed to commemorate the 50th Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence in 1826.  This plate is part of a series of patterns that have come to be known as the 'States Border' or 'America and Independence' series.  While each pattern in the series features a different central view, each central image is flanked by two female figures  on plinths identified as 'AMERICA AND' and 'INDEPENDENCE.' The figure on the left, wearing an apron bearing a square and compass, holds a portrait of George Washington and wears a blindfold labeled 'Justice.'  The kneeling figure at right holds a staff on which a cap bearing the word 'LIBERTY' is perched.  Surrounding the figures of America and Independence are scalloped panels with the names of the first 15 American states: Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Georgia, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, South Carolina, New Hampshire, Virginia, New York, North Carolina, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Kentucky.  Interestingly, by the time this plate was produced an additional nine states had entered the Union, but only 15 of the 24 states are represented in the pattern.  The central images in this series are based on copperplate engravings published by William Marshall in London from 1825 to 1828, and were likely small and untitled to hide the fact that English views were being featured in patriotic American patterns.

I have also attached an image of our dish. The transfer printing looks extremely close, with small spacing variations that likely resulted from the application process rather than the original printed design. That being said, the Staffordshire potteries were notorious about copying each other’s designs. In my personal opinion, however, the resemblance of the pattern is quite strong. The treatment of the underside (image also attached) is also very close, and they bear an impressed stamp in the upper right corner. The red you see on the underside of ours is the museum tracking number.

I hope this is of help!

Best wishes,
Lea"
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 04:23:57 pm by ghopper1924 »
"I collect antiques because they're beautiful."

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mart

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Re: Staffordshire Deep Blue Commemorative Dish
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2015, 07:20:23 pm »
Already discounted my theory !!  The pottery went bankrupt in 1834/35 And James was back in the UK shortly after !! Didn`t say what happened to the other Clews but the pottery changed hands soon after the bankruptcy !!

Ipcress

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Re: Staffordshire Deep Blue Commemorative Dish
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2015, 01:02:51 pm »
Glad to read that, Ghopper ! I did say " Maybe there was a batch made for the American market and some weren't as good as they should be ? "

Certainly didn't resemble their British pottery and to a man no one i showed it to was prepared to say it was genuine.

It's an awful looking base, though. Those swirls and poorly impressed mark...

KC

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Re: Staffordshire Deep Blue Commemorative Dish
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2015, 06:39:42 pm »
I have to admit that the swirls on the bottom were taunting me to say modern/repro....but something just made me feel that a look see by an "expert" needed to be made.  So....glad to hear it paid off!  :)
I'm from the South - but please don't mistake my Southern Manners/Accent/Charm as a weakness!

ghopper1924

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Re: Staffordshire Deep Blue Commemorative Dish
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2015, 07:47:44 pm »
Hmmmm...sounds like some folks need some schoolin' in the ceramic arts... ;)

Anyway, thanks for the good wishes. Every day is a learning experience on Antique-Shop.com.
"I collect antiques because they're beautiful."

-Broderick Crawford

Ipcress

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Re: Staffordshire Deep Blue Commemorative Dish
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2015, 04:45:40 am »
I have to admit that the swirls on the bottom were taunting me to say modern/repro....but something just made me feel that a look see by an "expert" needed to be made.  So....glad to hear it paid off!  :)

Well that's a worry as i consider myself one !  :P More difficult with photos though.

jacon4

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Re: Staffordshire Deep Blue Commemorative Dish
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2015, 06:37:39 am »
Well that's a worry as i consider myself one !  :P More difficult with photos though.

Yeah, ABSOLUTELY, photo's can fool anyone which is why i almost always add in a disclaimer when talking about pic's of old furniture.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 06:39:42 am by jacon4 »

KC

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Re: Staffordshire Deep Blue Commemorative Dish
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2015, 11:17:34 pm »
Totally agree jacon4.

After being on here for years we know that photos can be deceiving!  So many times things can "look" perfect but you can tell differences by handling/feeling the piece and seeing all the perfections/imperfections.

Quote
"I have to admit that the swirls on the bottom were taunting me to say modern/repro....but something just made me feel that a look see by an "expert" needed to be made.  So....glad to hear it paid off!  :)"
I should have clarified that the "expert" I was referring to was someone that they could physically take it to that is knowledgeable in that area and not the occasional dabbler in antiques that they might take it to.

Wasn't insinuating about anyone's knowledge here or lessening their value on the the forum.  All are valuable here!!!  Life is good...chill...be happy!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 11:39:31 pm by KC »
I'm from the South - but please don't mistake my Southern Manners/Accent/Charm as a weakness!