William & Mary blanket/mule chest

[jacon4]

lol cogar, i would if i could!

[bigwull]

Well then Jacon, ..... maybe if you could contact the artist who painted these "squiggles" and ask them what their significance is, to wit:



Or the artist who painted these  "squiggles", to wit: 



 

horizontal squiggles.. usually mean  water, and verticle squiggles,can be rain, worms, or in the case of Snakes & ladders...snakes...

[jacon4]

I've asked everyone i know plus check research books of them, so far, no go. The plate squiggles kinda make sense, it's the main theme of the decoration, in this chests case though they are not and somewhat out of place with the theme of it's decor. Yet, he got them in there anyway, almost hidden.

 It's kinda like "wedged dovetails", i have been looking for an answer to why some german americans built using this construction for going on 30 years now, or ever since i got an 18th century painted chest from the Shenandoah valley. Here is the back of a drawer where you can see this type of construction well.

[cogar]

It's kinda like "wedged dovetails", i have been looking for an answer to why some german americans built using this construction for going on 30 years now, ...

Jacon, I don't think I really understand what your question is.  

Why wouldn't they use that "dovetail", .... it is simple to "mark n' cut" ..... and as strong as any other "dovetail".

When making "one-of-a-kind", ..... that is the simplelest and quickest one to "cut" .... because it doesn't require any "dimensions" or "spacing" measurements, ..... it's all per say "freehand" markings.

OOPS, I forgot to include ........ if you don 't "cut them to fit" ....... then you "fit them to the cut" by driving a "wedge" into the "tail".

If you "mark" for the dovetail and then "saw the line" .... then you have to "wedge it".

Otherwise, you hafta saw on the inside of the lines for the "dove" and on the outside of the lines for the "tail". 

[gg27]

It's kinda like "wedged dovetails", i have been looking for an answer to why some german americans built using this construction for going on 30 years now, or ever since i got an 18th century painted chest from the Shenandoah valley. Here is the back of a drawer where you can see this type of construction well.

I asked DH (serious woodworker) about the dovetails.  He says that apparently this was a well known German technique for strengthening sloppy dovetails.  It's interesting to see that some handmade high end furniture makers are using this technique as a decorative feature using different woods to show it off.  BTW, fantastic piece.  Lucky you!  GG

[bigwull]

I must be the odd one out....i think its guggit... D...

[jacon4]

Cogar, that dovetail is ALOT of extra work when one considers the standard way to attach pins & tails is to put a dab of glue on them, then assemble. This wasnt a one of a kind germanic construction detail just  very few germans did this sort of construction. Another thing, they did this on the case as well (didnt include a pic as it's painted & harder to see) and required very precise layout with much larger dovetails. Indeed, these guys would give a modern day CNC machine a run for it's money in terms of precision joinery. This kind of construction takes time and, if one is doing it for a living, time is money.

Another factor here is, they were competing against other immigrants who went with the dab of glue assembly.  Generally speaking, when you look at the joinery that is visible on 18th century pieces, the quality was usually very good however, when you look at the "hidden" joinery (like drawers for instance) it tended to be quite primitive suggesting someone else (like an apprentice) did it. You could not get away with letting a beginner do this sort of joinery, even if it was hidden.

I suspect the above reasons is why very few americans did this type of joinery and it didnt last very long either, it just wasnt economically viable.

GG, no way was this done by your average 18th century german cabinet maker, very few did it and when you look at the precision, it's very impressive. No way was this done to "fix" sloppy joinery.

There was a discussion on this several years ago in another forum on SAPFM (society of american period furniture makers) which has some of the best wood workers in the nation, for those interested
http://www.sapfm.org/forum/index.php?topic=1188.0

[cogar]

Jason, I added an "OOPS, FORGOT" to my above post.

And concerning this from your above post .....

and required very precise layout with much larger dovetails.

Jason, the only precision involved is "sawing a straight line".

Unless you want the dovetails to be EXACTLY the same distance between one another.

The length/depth of the tail/dove is determined by the "thickness" of the opposing board ...... and the width of the "dove" is determined by the width of the "tail" or vice versa, ........ which ever ones are cut first.

Jason, I learned how to cut those dovetails by watching Roy Underhill do it on one of his programs on ……   The Woodwright's Shop  ….. http://www.tv.com/shows/the-woodwrights-shop/

[jacon4]

Cogar, OK, i am easy, have it your way

I think Al Breed came closest to the reason, some "shop tradition" in Germany which they brought with them however, the question i ask is, why?

I cliked that link, it shows Roy building a Shaker cupboard?

[cogar]

More like a tad bit of arrogance than easy.

[jacon4]

Well no, i wouldnt say arrogant, i would say i dont accept your argument is all

[bigwull]

Does it really matter which way the doves have been cut...as long as they are doing the job,then that,s all that matters...after all...its not as if its Rocket science...

[mart]

I would agree that its most likely a handed down technique,, small area,, father to son type or master to apprentice !!  Its a unique way to do it but it would certainly make a stronger joint !!  Interesting !!!

[gg27]

GG, no way was this done by your average 18th century german cabinet maker, very few did it and when you look at the precision, it's very impressive. No way was this done to "fix" sloppy joinery.

My previous post didn't explain very well that I didn't mean to suggest that it was sloppy joinery on your piece, only that it was a traditional way of doing this, originally conceived as a way to fix sloppy joinery & morphed into a tradition with some German cabinet makers.  That's why we indicated that it is now used by high end cabinet makers as a design feature.  GG

[jacon4]

Does it really matter which way the doves have been cut

No, not really although, there have been more words written (some say wasted) about dovetails than any other joinery method, indeed, entire books have opined on dovetails. Dovetail joinery is something like 4000 years old but didn't reach widespread use until the 18th century. Wedged dovetails when done by a master are decorative, no doubt about that but in this virginia chest case, it's painted and it's difficult for me to imagine this chest builder went to the trouble of doing that and then covering them with paint.