Medieval Belgian Seal Dish

[Henry]

I wondered if anyone had seen something similar or knew anything about this kind of thing?

It's a brass dish 24cm (9.5in) in diameter. The centre appears to be an impression of a medieval Belgian seal that reads:

S'PREPOSITORUM ET SCABINORUM CURTRACENSIUM

The S' is, I think an abbreviation of SIGILLUM and from what I can tell the whole thing translates to something like:

Reeve and Alderman seal (of) Kortrijk.

A Reeve was an official responsible for an area, I suppose something similar to a mayor in this case. The Alderman was probably a lower rank than a Reeve back then. Curtracensium was a Latin name for the Belgian (at that time Flanders) city of Kortrijk.

The 77mm seal in the middle of the dish is described in an 1873 book, referred to here:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fikKAQAAIAAJ&q=prepositorum+et+scabinorum+curtracensium&dq=prepositorum+et+scabinorum+curtracensium&hl=en&sa=X&ei=C0MbUvmtFMjKtQafoYDoAQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA
 
Any idea as to why an impression of the seal was made into a brass dish (I imagine at a much later date)? Any idea of the age of the dish or any other information gratefully received.

[mart]

Well since it was meant to hang on a wall,,its likely a memento for years of service at retirement !!

[Henry]

The loops are welded on, almost like an after thought. Is it possible that it started life as an ornamental dish and had the loops welded on at a later date?

[fancypants]

Can't tell much of what follows (from your images) ... looks like the loops were soldered onto your item , usually done in the 'finishing' portion of production of such objects .... you could get a loupe or strong mag-glass & check the bottom of your item for wear that would indicate (regular) horizontal usage ... another 'tell' would have to do with the thickness of the brass that it's stamped/turned from .. thick stuff for daily-drivers , thin for display items (not all the time , though) .
Brass can be a pain when it gets tarnished , such as for fruit & such ... looks like maybe there may still be some clear-coating on your piece ?


My bright shiny two pennies can't see details well enough to give much in the range of age for your item , but I've the unsubstaniated impression of 20th century , Henry .
Hope I'm full of beans !

I'd also guess that it might have made in the city of note , as a commemerative/rememberance/deco-ish item ?
Somewhat like many varied-theme items in mid-to-higher-end tourist destinations/traps in Europe , as in gift/crafters/manufacturers shops .

Lots of what looks like some good metal-rolling to form it .


Man on the horse ready to conk the other guy on the head may not be that much of a popular motif in all households ... but hey , everyone's got there own tastes !

Wish I coulda given you something more solid on your item , Henry , but there you go (& welcome to the forum) .

[mart]

Its not unusual for old symbols to be on more modern items !! From the look of the dish/plaque I am guessing 20th century too !!  Doubt that the loops are a later addition, most were welded on for decorative plaques !!  I have seen others done like that that were known 20th century !! I think this was a commemorative plaque !!

[ghopper1924]

I'm thinking 20th century as well.

But it's true, you see very few medieval Belgian seals! The ones I see are modern, and swimming around at the aquarium.

[Henry]

Thanks for your input everyone.

It's thin but not wafer thin so probably display rather than usage. It could easily be utilised for Weetabix though! The loops are just soldered on. Apparently though, the chap on the horse is a Saint and he's about to share or lend his coat to the poor man who doesn't have a horse. I don't quite know why the sword is so prominent, perhaps as deterrent to make sure he doesn't take the &%$$ and run off with the coat!

I just find it interesting that hundreds of years later, someone would have the idea and go to the effort to make a dish based on an imprint of a very old and fairly insignificant seal (that can no longer be read or really understood). I think the actual seal is in a museum, and I suspect it's been in a museum for quite a while which would also mean that whoever made it would have had to have access to it. The only reference to it is that book cataloguing seals which was written in the 1870s. I wonder if a master imprint was made of it at that time.

[mart]

You would be surprised at the number of similar items done in the 1960`s and 70`s !!   There is no regulation on items that old and are in the public domain !! All they needed to copy it is a clear pic !! 

[Henry]

I appreciate that. It's a high relief impression of the medieval seal, involving a cast of the original. It really doesn't feel like just a cheap brass mass produced picture/engraving, tacky 60s style horse-brassy in the 'style' of the original. Numismatics is my business (I run www.predecimal.com - my middle name is Henry!) and seals are related to coins which is probably why I ended up with this, although I can't remember exactly where I got it!

I wonder if the modern city of Kortrijk has a museum or something. Perhaps I'll write to them to see if they've seen another. It's probably about as rare as the Dark Side of the Moon album!

[mariok54]

Hi Henry,

That is one of the limitations of sites such as this, we can't actually hold and feel an item, there is nothing quite like handling the actual object to get a real feel of it.

When I was much younger I used to collect silver Morgan and Peace Dollars, more than once I was put off buying a coin because it didn't quite feel right (yes, you can get quite a few over here in the UK!), in your business you will know exactly what I mean.

[Henry]

The Chinese have started churning out aged looking US dollars and some UK coins like they're going out of fashion. It is a worry. Some are quite convincing.