Author Topic: Please help identify artist...  (Read 3311 times)

Jedo_03

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Please help identify artist...
« on: July 26, 2014, 01:23:38 am »
New to forum...
Thanks for having me...
I have some pieces of Royal Crown Derby, Imari 3788 pattern dated 1914.
Can anyone help identify the artist please - denoted by the "G" under the pattern number on the right in the pic of the base.
The Gresley family were connected closely with the Osmaston Road factory during the late 18th and early 19th Centuries.
I have a feeling the artist may be Cuthbert Gresley.
Thanks if you can help

mart

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Re: Please help identify artist...
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2014, 08:27:52 am »
Hi there and welcome to the group !!  Can we see the front please ??  The artwork in question ??

Jedo_03

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Re: Please help identify artist...
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2014, 12:08:53 am »

Hello Mart...
Here is a pic.
The pieces are Royal Crown Derby Imari pattern 3788, dated 1914.
The artist has apparently?? signed himself as " G ' ".
There are also two additional heiroglyphic marks - if anyone can give information about those too...
Thanks

mart

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Re: Please help identify artist...
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2014, 09:17:19 am »
http://www.royalcrownderby.co.uk/trademarks/

You might find the hieroglyphics here !!  The date marks were symbols of various kinds !!  From what I found Gresley usually signed the front of his work and did not initial the back !!  At least I found no reference to his ever having done that !! There were some unsigned pieces that were attributed to him so I am not saying that what you have is not something he did !! Best thing to do is to email the factory and I think you can find that address above with good clear pics and see what they say !! I would bet they have a historian that is more familiar with all the marks than I !!  Most of his work that is in high demand are the landscapes and detailed florals,, those would be signed on the artwork itself !! Just like any artist signs the front of a painting !!

Ipcress

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Re: Please help identify artist...
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2014, 01:04:56 pm »
I doubt it's Gresley - it's a generic piece and he's more recognised for specialist or commissioned pieces.

The factory museum might be able to identify the B or double square but these are are seen in UK auction rooms every day of the week, although this is a fairly early example

mart

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Re: Please help identify artist...
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2014, 01:19:19 pm »
I don`t think its his either !!  The artwork is too simple with little detail !!

Jedo_03

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Re: Please help identify artist...
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2014, 02:01:42 am »
Thanks very much, mart and ipcress...
I know the RCD website quite well, and use it for dating etc., but it doesn't tell much/anything about the artists who produced this great work.
I've tried numerous searches on the web for info - but not much shows.
A friend over there in the UK has Margaret Sargeant's book "Royal Crown Derby" but I'm told there isn't much info in that re artists.
Good suggestion to ask/email RCD and see if they will help.
Info I've gleaned in the past:
Cuthbert Gresley and his younger brother Harold, trained under J.P.Wale
In 1893 both Gresley brothers started work at the Derby Porcelain factory.
Cuthbert was a truly accomplished ceramics painter with flowers and landscapes being his specialities, but he turned his hand to painting anything that was required.
He was regarded as one of Derby’s finest artists and worked on the service presented by Derby on the marriage of Princess Mary of Cambridge.
Cuthbert Gresley loved music and was a reasonably accomplished singer. He lived at Chelleston and Shelton Lock in Derbyshire, England.
The Gresley dynasty of painters covers three generations and includes: Harold Gresley, Cuthbert Gresley, James Stephen Gresley and Frank Gresley.
(antique-marks.com/derby-artists)
Cuthbert Gresley
Born in Ockbrook in 1876 Cuthbert was to become a significant designer decorator at the world renowned Royal Crown Derby Porcelain Company. In 1894 he was apprenticed as a china painter under the tutorship of John Porter Wale Head of the painting room.
He was responsible for many commissioned services for royal households notably King George the V1 and Princess May of Cambridge. In his private life he was better known for his floral paintings in watercolour.
(derbysketchingclub. co.uk)
You see by these two small info's that C Gresley was indeed employed by RCD as a china painter. He commenced in 1894 under John Porter Wale and flourished in the company and went on to design and to work on services for royalty. As far as I can tell, his reknowned paintings were very much a part of his private life. He undoubtedly worked on many many china services during his tenure at RCD. In later years as his skills advanced he may (or may not) have ceased working on factory production services.
Hopefully, RCD will help to uncover some history.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 02:04:29 am by Jedo_03 »

mart

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Re: Please help identify artist...
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2014, 08:07:54 am »
Ipcress is in the UK and works with auction houses, museums ect in cataloging antiques !!  He would have a pretty good idea if it were his work !!

Jedo_03

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Re: Please help identify artist...
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2014, 05:02:03 am »

I've emailed the historian @royalcrownderby.co.uk asking if they have any info and will update the board if/when I get a reply.

mart

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Re: Please help identify artist...
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2014, 02:54:19 pm »
Please do keep us updated !!  That's how we learn !!

Jedo_03

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Re: Please help identify artist...
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2014, 02:09:02 am »
Oh well... the " G' " may not be a Gresley.
Here's the reply from the Historian-Curator at Royal Crown Derby:
Dear Joe
I am not sure about this theory, I don’t think there is any evidence to back it up.  At this time there would have been a department specifically dedicated to decorating ‘Japan’ patterns.  The Japan painters were specialists in that particular type of decoration and the painters such as the Gresleys would have been working on the more prestige pieces.  It is entirely possible that they helped out in the Japan department if needed but this is not enough to claim that items with a decorators mark of a G are by a Gresley.
Kind regards
Jacqueline Smith
Curator

mart

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Re: Please help identify artist...
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2014, 12:45:07 pm »
Too bad it wasn`t his work !!  I didn`t think so but good to know for sure !!

Jedo_03

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Re: Please help identify artist...
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2014, 05:36:42 am »

I don't think that we know "for sure" Mart...
The Historian/Custodian at RCD said in her reply to me that - "The Japan painters were specialists in that particular type of decoration and the painters such as the Gresleys would have been working on the more prestige pieces.  (However) It is entirely possible that they helped out in the Japan department if needed...
C Gresley was certainly acknowledged as a decorative artist on RCD pieces - but he began his career at RCD as an apprentice china painter. So it is at least probable that he was engaged in Imari pattern-work in his early years there, and as the Historian/Custodian suggests, perhaps there were occasions when he (and others) were called on to help out in the Japan china section.
It would be good to find a catalogue of RCD artist's marks so that we could learn more history.
I'm not pursuing who is right or wrong - just trying to find out some history about some pieces I have.

mart

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Re: Please help identify artist...
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2014, 08:10:55 am »
Yes, I read that line and I also read in my research that he occasionally did help in that department but did not like doing it !!  Now I would wonder if he would be as quick to initial the work he did there when an artists reputation is determined by it !!
Now being an artist myself, and having done some contract work for others, I can tell you that if I personally was not pleased with the work,,I darn sure didn`t tell the world that I did it !!

Ipcress

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Re: Please help identify artist...
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2014, 08:35:31 am »
Not his handwriting, though.

If you look at the pattern number books, some of which are partly available via searching through Google, it looks like a factory catalogue mark

The other mark is more likely to be for the painter but is possibly lost