Age of this hogscraper candlestick?

[Bradley]

Age or anything else about this brass "hog scraper" candleholder? I like the primitive look.
 8.25 inches high and 6 inches across the base, rim to rim. Ink pen shown for scale.  That flange at the top appears fairly thick for a piece of sheet metal. I cannot find a cut or seam, so could the shaft have been formed from a single casting? One photo shows a welding repair on a crack.

I would mostly like to know WHEN it was made, but "where" and "how" would be nice to know too.

Many Thanks.

Bradley

[KC]

This one doesn't look that old!  I am betting from the 1980's to 90's.

We had a whole lot of this same type/style come into Texas during that time.  Most were from India and China.  This sure looks a whole lot like those.

[Bradley]

Interesting. I have been shopping it around a bit, and that's the first time anyone has told me it might be that recent. In truth, I have not had anyone confidently narrow it down to a decade yet, but usually I get told that the recent ones would have been made of a piece of sheet metal rolled and pinched together at a clearly visible seam going from the bottom to the top of the shaft, and there would be a screw visible on the bottom that would attach the shaft to the base. Mine lacks those modern features. Also, there are no concentric rings in the base to indicate that it was spun on a machine. In other words, this doesn't seem to be machined in any way.

I am not arguing, merely passing on what I have been told so far. I ask for LOTS of opinions. Everyone knows something of value, I have found. Can you post a link for those ones from China and India that look like mine? Maybe they are still using primitive fabrication methods after all.

[KC]

Don't have pictures specifically of those that I have seen during that time...but here is one similar to yours:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brass-candle-stick-holder-/231551432678?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35e98a77e6

and here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brass-Candle-Stick-8-Made-in-Spain-/231543536243?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35e911fa73

and here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-BRASS-ADJUSTABLE-CANDLE-STICK-/141634166775?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20fa0ddff7&nma=true&si=DOluG0YRub6vpCdc4zoUhfAljKs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Bradley]

Thanks. No ages, assumed or otherwise, on either one of them though. The first one looks most like mine, but they did not show the bottom. Would like to have seen it because I was told on another site that screws and threaded bolts started being used widely in manufacturing in the late 1800s, so I always look there.

I would absolutely agree that the second one looks recent because (though the photos are fuzzy) I think I am seeing a screw or bolt on the bottom of that one. That would make sense because it has a handle that looks like it would be set onto a bolt that fastens the shaft and baseplate together. On the other hand, I think mine looks more primitive than either one of those.  Too bad the sellers could not post more info on their ages.

Here is one that looks a bit more like mine, but the seller here does not list an age either, merely the description "Antique OLD Primitive Rustic Brass Hogscraper Push UP Candlestick Candle Holder"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-AAFA-Primitive-Rustic-Brass-Hogscraper-Push-UP-Candlestick-Candle-Holder-/141651855716?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20fb1bc964

Thanks again.

[KC]

I'm trying to look at yours to see the "age" on it.  What exactly am I seeing on the bottom?  Is that a wear area where "a silver/metallic color" is showing through the "gold/brass" ?

[cogar]

Manufacturing wise, it is a lot easier, simpler and cheaper to solder 2 pieces of brass together than it is to bolt them together, ….. especially iffen the bolt or the nut has to be inserted down the length of that brass tube.

It looks to me to be “spin” formed via a brass tube and flat oval …. and then the top and base soldered together.

[Bradley]

Cogar,

It would make sense that it was spun at some point to get the circular tube, base and lip shapes.  But when I think of recently-made objects that were "spun" on a wheel as part of an automated factory process, here is a photo of what I mean. This is a different item (from another antiques site I go to occasionally), but you can see the concentric circles in the metal from where it was turned on a wheel and ground. The base on mine looks to have some very mild pitting, as though the original piece of metal came out of a sand mold and was then formed into a circle.
I can't see soldering marks from where the base, tube and lip join each other, but that doesn't mean it wasn't soldered, does it? Maybe the person doing it had a fine touch.

KC,

There seems to have been some sort of coating on the brass which wore away over time. I don't know why anyone would coat brass (other than plating it with a more valuable metal like silver or gold), but I have seen it done. I have some brass pieces which look nearly like solid gold after a good polishing.  I assume you are not referring to the welding repair job done on the bottom. It was like that when I bought it, but I don't mind that "been around the block" look. I think it adds character.

[cogar]

testing

I can't see soldering marks from where the base, tube and lip join each other, but that doesn't mean it wasn't soldered, does it? Maybe the person doing it had a fine touch.

Bradley,

Not all soldering jobs look as rude n’ crude as the “bubblegum” fix on the bottom of your candleholder. 

Solder comes in spools from wee small up to 1/8” in diameter or larger. The actual process of soldering is often called “sweating”. How this works is, solder “flux” is applied between the 2 pieces to be soldered and the 2 pieces are heated up extra “hot” before the solder is applied. 

The tippy end of the solder “thread” is placed against the “crack” or joint where the 2 pieces meet, …. the solder melts …. and is “sucked” right in and “glues” the 2 pieces together. And iffen ya know what you are doing ya don’t have “bubblegum” blobs all around the exterior.

[cogar]

A brass vase spun by hand. Mounted to the lathe spindle is the mandrel for the body of the vase; a shell sits on the "T" rest. The foreground shows the mandrel for the base. Behind the finished vase are the spinning tools used to shape the metal.

Read more @  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_spinning 
I tried 6 times but it wouldn't let me post the .jpg for the picture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Metal_spinning_brass_vase.jpg

[mart]

Cogar is right !!  That coating is what makes this piece modern rather than older,, most modern (20th century) brass was coated with a clear lacquer to prevent the metal from tarnishing !!  Some imported items are not coated !!

[KC]

Agree with cogar and Mart.  The coating was put on the items so they would look "pristine" to buyers and not discolor in transit, while on sale and after purchase. 

[Bradley]

If I haven't bored you with brass candlesticks yet, I have another one. I could not resist this one because the vendor at an antique/consignment shop offered it for only $5. Funny thing is I thought this smaller one looked more recent because the one I posted above seems sturdier and more primitive.  Yet here is what someone posted on another antiques assessment site. Not trying to pit y'all in a cockfight of antiques assessors, but I am curious to see if any of you agree with the assessment of this smaller item.


I first thought that the vertical column was lathe spun, except other views show that it is quite thick walled and the top flange is very thick. This leads me to believe that the vertical column is a casting. This piece was manufactured by low technology processes and could have been made in a one man shop. The highest tech equipment needed would have been a casting furnace, pouring ladle, mold making gear, and a supply of brass.

Height is 4.5 inches. Base is 5 inches across.

[frogpatch]

This one looks a lot like one I posted here a couple years ago. It turned out to be made in the 1830's although I had some conflicting answers here. Nut and bolts have been used for a lot longer than the late 1800s. If they could make guns they could make bolts. I will see if I can find the pictures.

[Bradley]

WOW. Thanks!  If this is early 19th century then I think it is apropos to quote the late, great Joan Rivers: "Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke of the century." I never would have suspected it to be that old. I got it because it was a bargain. It is very light and thin compared to the first one I posted in this thread.

What other features about it point to it being that old?