Age of this hogscraper candlestick?

[Bradley]

So I collect handworked brass -- and opinions. Since I don't sense any boredom (yet) on this thread, how about these two? They are each about 4 inches high and the weights in the bottom appear solid iron -- very attractive to magnets, which I carry with me. On one site on which I posted, they were assessed at 1850s to 1910. On another, someone said the dreaded words "late twentieth century."

The person saying they looked older said this. "Hand hammering is a somewhat time consuming and laborious task and often you can find a gap or overlapping of an indentation that shows it is not machine made ( I carry a pair of dividers and a 6” metal ruler when I am ‘ antique shopping ‘ so I can check for such indications ) . If they are hand hammered I would estimate ( from the photos ) that they date from 1850 to 1910 "

Even the person disagreeing with that assessment said they appeared hand-hammered, but bemoaned that using the words "Someone has taken a pair of brass, turned or molded candle sticks that were perfectly fine, and made the hammer marks all around to imitate hammered metal"

Both these posts were on different sites, so the two assessors never even saw each other's words. Who was right?

[mart]

OK !!  From what I see,, the "hammer" marks on these were for purely decorative purposes,,not done to create the piece !!  They are way too even and perfectly formed !! My bet is that they were cast this way and not done by hand !! It appears to have been stretched where it meets the main part !!  May have been done in three pieces,, base, column and top, could not see well enough to tell!!  I think made after 1900 !! Probably first quarter !!

[frogpatch]

I agree with Mart, but I feel they are later and possibly made off shore. It is so hard to tell with this stuff. These are not consistent with anything I have seen made in the US except for small independent craft studios. Very difficult to say for sure. I am not an expert, just someone who has been doing what you do for 40 plus years.

[Bradley]

Thanks, both of you. I would be quite happy to think that they are early 1900s which, incidentally, is what the sales tag indicated. But one cannot always believe the sales tag, so that is why I come forums like this.

Mart, I have a particularly sentimental reason to like your assessment of "first quarter of the 1900s," though I want the truth, whatever it may be. My grandparents, long since deceased, were all born in the first quarter of the 20th century. There isn't a day that goes by that I do not think of  them, but I value things from the formative days of their youth and young adulthood, long before I was around. (I like older things too of course) My maternal grandfather was a steel worker in Pittsburgh during the Great Depression and WWII. His wife, my grandmother, was the kindest, most compassionate soul I have ever met, a sort of Protestant ascended master, if such a title existed. What a perfect match! One of those little hammered candlesticks sits in front of a photo of them from the late 1970s, happy and smiling and posing with some other relatives. There's a nice bit of symbolism involved in having a hand worked metal item (even if it is brass) in front of the photo of a steel worker.

Again, thanks for the input.

[mart]

Thats a very nice way to look at the items you love and collect !!  My parents were also from that era although country people !!  So I gravitate to all things country and country inspired !! Thats why all things do not have to be worth money to be valuable !!  Its the thought that they evoke that counts !!

[Mat]

Hi, I just want to add that I would have no problem with dating your first (the tall one) candlestick also to the 19th century, to the second half of it. I can see quite some wear on the pictures. Here are some comparable examples, dated around 1870: http://www.meintzinger.de/AiF/G76.HTM ,  http://www.meintzinger.de/AiF/A34088O.HTM . You can find them under number 34088. In Europe you can still find lots of these, they are not very rare.
Mat

[Bradley]

Thanks Matt! The  items in the links are identical to mine, down to the decorative band near the top, so if the dates are correct on your links, I guess the question of age on mine is still open. One of the arguments for the large one being late 20th century is that it has a coat of lacquer on it. But can't you lacquer an old item too? Like painting a 100 year old house?

Also, mine does not have a bolt or screw in the bottom, and in the words of one of the people posting in this thread Manufacturing wise, it is a lot easier, simpler and cheaper to solder 2 pieces of brass together than it is to bolt them together, ….. especially if the bolt or the nut has to be inserted down the length of that brass tube."

Whatever the age of mine, it shows quite a bit of wear and I like the heavy construction.

I would not mind searching non-English sites, if I can get into them. Online translators are easy to find.

[mart]

No Bradley,, you can not re-lacquer an old item !!~  Older items were not lacquered to begin with and that would stick out like a sore thumb !! !!  They were used, polished and cared for by someones ancestors !!  This is one thing many people and I will disagree on !!  Silver and brass were meant to be used which meant they were polished regularly !! Do you think your ancestors would have served tea from a nasty, tarnished, silver teapot ??  Of course not !!  Its only people today that think the tarnish looks better than a nicely cleaned and cared for piece of silver or brass !!  Brass was more utilitarian in use than silver but the same applies !!  You would not have let your guests see a piece of brass in your house in that condition !! They would have taken pride in having everything clean and polished !! Only in recent years were items lacquered so polishing was unnecessary !! The only exception would be items of historical importance !!  Those you never touch !!
OK !! Got sidetracked !! I will put my soapbox away !!

[Bradley]

You are putting words in my mouth, Mart. Never even once did I use the word "re-lacquer" or put forth the idea of "re-lacquering" -- lacquering something AGAIN. Those are your words. You have an argument going on here with imaginary opposition. It's alright, Mart. We all have our tequila nights now and then. LOL

[mart]

LOL !!  Got me didn`t cha` !!  Thats right,,you didn`t say re-lacquer,, you said "can`t you lacquer an old item too"  but the same answer applies,,that would stick out like a sore thumb !!  Stop and think about it,, someone has a 19th century pair of candlesticks,, they didn`t have spray cans till modern times,,you can`t brush that stuff on metal properly !!   Could send them back to the factory I guess !!   And why would anyone even think about it ??

[cogar]

Now Bradley, me thinks you got a little p-faced and pierty there.

You asked Mart a question … and she answered it.

The appraised age of your item …..  is the appraised age of your item  and you will just have to live with it …. or try another forum to see iffen you can  get the appraised age that you want.

[Mat]

Hi again,
mart, as far as I can see laquered brass existed in the 19th century, so I would not see that as a proof that the candlestick is new. Here are random examples of 19th c lacquered brass: http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/furniture-lighting/a-pair-of-lacquered-brass-chandeliers-probably-french-5551535-details.aspx ; http://www.antiquetelescopes.org/19thc.html
Mat

[Bradley]

I really am not emotionally invested one way or another in the age of this item. But I will blame myself for not making my question clearer so -- deep breath -- let me try again. Here is what I meant:

Isn't it possible that someone here in more recent times (let's say the 1970s, for example)  might take an old item, (let's say from the late 19th century), clean in up  and put lacquer on it (FOR THE FIRST TIME in the 1970s) because that what was being done at the time? It would not make any sense to me either, but that was the trend in the 1970s or thereabouts, right?  That was how I intended my question to be taken.

And I want to repeat that I am not invested in having this one item be appraised as old. I want the truth no matter what it is, but at this point, we have a divergent opinion here and I was trying to reconcile the two. Call it a bridge-building effort that went awry. I guess that's why I am not in construction. LOL

[KC]

I will chime in on your question!  Yes it is possible that someone could but very unlikely that someone would invest that much time into such a recent item.

Now me, on the other hand....we HAVE DONE JUST THAT!  (You can hate me Mart.)  BUT it was to the large kick plates on our double front doors.  They are antique brass and the hubs likes them shiny whilst I like them aged.  So, to make him happy we cleaned them up real well and then I lacquered them so that it would result in less maintenance. However, that was years ago and as I just went and observed - they need to be redone.  So, now the hassle of removing worn lacquer (wow - this just made my day - NOT).

Now, if I had some pieces (decorative use only) that were just for "looks" and not of quality/value and I wanted that shiny look...and they were sitting up on 13' shelves that I don't care to scale often...yes I could do it.  However, it does take some work to get that "look" that new pieces have (appearing that they haven't been lacquered). Awful lot of trouble for a small object.

So, yes someone like me could.  But I have enough things to do (like kickplates on the front door - arggggghhhh).

[mart]

LOL !!  Well, at least we got a conversation started ,,didn`t we !!  The Chinese were using a form of lacquer way before we did !!  After 1850 or so many high end items were lacquered just typically not utilitarian objects !!  I can count on one hand the times I have seen things that were done this way !! And that is in the last 50 years or so that I have been looking at and dealing with antiques !!   I have a shelf full of brass from all over the world( no thanks to hubby) that I have to polish ocassionally (or not if I can get out of it) !! It is really not something I look forward to !!  And not a single one of them is lacquered,,darn it !!
As to your 1970`s theory,, if it had been lacquered at that time it would not have worn off as much as it did by now !! In other words the coating would have still  been over the areas of normal wear to some degree and it wasn`t !!
And if it had followed the style trends of the 70`s I can almost guarantee it would have been antiqued brass !! Because people were antiquing everything !!  I said once if their kids were still long enough they would antique them !!  Do not think I ever gave my idea of a timeline for it !!  I think the first one you posted was made around 1900 !!  

KC,,  ,,kick plates are a matter of taste !!  LOL,,, Tell Hubs I think they should be shiny too !!
Thats what I have been trying to say,,why,,logically would anyone do that ??  Makes no sense !!