Copper bowl, marked "XAP 1832" -- real or repro?

[Bradley]

In my thrift shop meanderings I found a copper plate/bowl marked "XAP 1832" and the fading metal and hammering marks seem to me to indicate that date might actually be valid, but I have been hustled by repro before. Any insights?

The plate is precisely 8 inches across and the depression is one inch deep. The hammering seems hand-done. Very uneven. "Primitive, early 19th century bowl" is how it was labeled. Top center is a soldering mark. One can see the crack that it was meant to cover on the bottom.

Also, does the rim on the bottom indicate age or origin in any way?

[awhitetriangle]

looks pretty authentic to me, style of the lettering etc fits, i'm sure someone with more knowledge will be able to confirm.

[Bradley]

Another question that has been nagging at me: What about the rim on the bottom of the plate? How was it formed, and does it indicate fabrication from a specific time period?

I can probably get that answer from local dealers, but well... y'all are here. And with two jobs, I have not been getting out much lately.

[mart]

You said XAP,, I see XMP !!

[KC]

I see XAP  (If you look at the smaller area of the letter it could appear to be a M).

[Bradley]

Mart, I can see  your point and I called it "XMP" at first, but a friend pointed out that if the middle letter were M instead of A, then the M would be shorter than the other two letters and the markings atop the M would be pointless. That is certainly not definitive, but fun to ponder, eh?

[mart]

I did not see any markings at the top of the M !!  Since it is scratched in by hand would not be unusual to have differences in letters !! As for me,,I see nothing that screams repro !!  But I see what you mean,, the form does look more modern than 1832 !!  Could be founding date for a business/club or something similar !!  Need to know what XMP or XAP stands for but I found nothing that matches those initials !!

[Bradley]

In any case, it was certainly hand-worked and I really like that. (hand hammering marks all over the place, though my photos do not do it much justice.) Some people call that esthetic "primitive." I prefer the more dramatic phrasing "Looks like it survived a shipwreck." I am a sucker for that look. 

[KevinM]

Here's an interesting theory, perhaps the "Letter" in the center is actally a "Symbol of the Freemasons" and the 2 outside letters "XP" are the first 2 letters of the Greek word for "Christ" and the Plate was maybe from a Freemasons Lodge?

[Bradley]

HOLY FRIJOLES YOU WIN, Kevin ! ! !

If that middle figure were an "A" then why not a simple horizontal cross beam to connect the two vertical/diagonals? After all, the artisan was capable of doing a horizontal for the letter "P."

And just for laughs, here is a close-up of the middle figure and, of course, a Masonic compass and square, sans the "G" that would be in the middle.

Also, a bit of trivia for you. I purchased this in Savannah, which was founded by a Mason (James Edward Oglethorpe) in 1733. Savannah is the location of "Solomon's Lodge #1" which lays claim to being "Oldest Continuously Operating English Constituted Lodge Of Freemasons In The Western Hemisphere"  -- http://solomonslodge.com/ The Masons are still quite active here.

[KC]

Could be! 

[Bradley]

Yep! I can see where some would say that the middle character looked like an "M" in my first photo, but that was due to my bad photography. I really think Kevin got it.  Will try to contact local Masons and see what they think.  Also, I am off today, so I just might get out and talk to some local antiques dealers too and see what they say. Will keep y'all posted.

THANKS, Kevin!

[Bradley]

BAD NEWS: The Mason connection theory was/is fascinating and I really admire the thought process, but a long-time Mason friend of mine debunks it pretty simply. This friend moved down here from Ohio several years ago, where he had been one of the youngest Masons in the state. Here are his words from a text dialogue earlier today:

"Masons don't use Greek letters. The "A" kinda looks like a square and compass, the way it's engraved in there. But that's a Greek Alpha. It's definitely Greek. That being said, it could either be a Fraternity or a Greek orthodox religious thing."

After that discussion, it made sense to me that Masons would not use Greek letters, because they were (are?) frequently used by older popes of the Catholic Church, which had some ...ahem!... issues with the Knights Templar (ancestors of the Masons) in 1307. The persecution of the Knights Templar by King Philip IV of France, in collusion with then Pope Clement V, on Friday the thirteenth of October, 1307 is what led to Friday the 13th being viewed as a bad luck day. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friday_the_13th)

It was a good theory, Kevin. I liked it.

GOOD NEWS: On the bright side, this Mason friend suggested that this bowl would have been given to a newly inducted brother in a fraternity, and thus the year would represent the year of his induction. Considering the hand-scrawled nature of the inscription that makes a lot of sense. I am guessing the fraternity would have had a few of these laying around, and would inscribe them with the appropriate year as a new man was inducted. So in theory, the plate could be even older. A local antiques dealer who also repairs jewelry confirmed the old-style form and added that the rim does not debunk that date. It means only that the original piece of metal was not round and that the rim was formed when this "not-round" piece of metal was spun on a lathe. A lathe could be ancient or recent, but the hammering and uneven lip and other edges indicate this was quite old too, even if the inscription had not been there.

GREAT NEWS: The bowl has tested NEGATIVE for lead. On the jeweler's advice, I went to a hardware store and got a lead testing kit. I may purchase yet another kit to back up the results, if the "3M Lead Check" kit is as accurate as it claims to be, then my bowl is safe for food use. No lead content at all. But plating is usually tin, silver or gold anyway, right? For safety's sake, it was still worth it to check.

Thanks everyone for chiming in.

[mart]

You are getting closer !!  Keep on with the research !!  You have a very interesting item !!

[KevinM]

Bradley, it was just a theory... Sorry it didn't pan out, oops, no pun intended!
Anyways, sometimes you never know and have to research all possibilities or theories.

It may be a Fraternity, Club or Secret Society Plate of some type. It's interesting to note that the date on the plate happens to be by coincidence I'm sure, the same date that Skull and Bones Secret Society was co-founded at Yale in 1832.