Author Topic: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest  (Read 4553 times)

ghopper1924

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17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« on: November 15, 2016, 09:48:25 am »
Good thing I don't have to use the word "pilgrim" with this!

Ahem. Anyway, this box is from England ca. 1620. It's oak, with two locks (one "blind"), and sits on 4 hand-turned feet. The feet are unusual. They are clearly hand turned, but most boxes from this time period don't have feet, so maybe they're later? If they're additions, they're old ones! Also, the trim around the bottom of the trunk is clearly later, probably from the 19th century. It measures 14" deep by 23" wide by 13" tall.

The description that came with it is: "A fine and very rare early Jacobean oak silver chest/hinged top opens to a plain interior/foliate carved front panel, on simple turned feet." It was bought by an American from Kansas City from a seller in Oxford, England (which doesn't necessarily mean it was made there) in 1970.

What are your thoughts on value?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 09:52:43 am by ghopper1924 »
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jacon4

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Re: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2016, 11:09:19 am »
Good thing I don't have to use the word "pilgrim" with this!
Thank God, It's an american term!

Hmmmmmm, i am not so sure about 1620, the color is awful "light", it should be much darker. It's a boarded box, i don't see scribe marks for layout of carving. Course, it is english and out of my field of interest & knowledge, where is what's his name that lives in GB, he should be able to help out here.

Here is link to Jan & John antiques page, they specialize in early english oak, saw 2 boxes for sale there recently
http://www.jmaggs.com/Furniture-Gallery.htm
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 11:13:42 am by jacon4 »

jacon4

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Re: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2016, 11:22:57 am »
On a higher end of scale is Marhamchurch antiques in GB, he sells a TON of early english oak pieces, on 1st page of current stock is listed 9 early boxes for 2900 lbs
http://www.marhamchurchantiques.com/current-stock/all/

ghopper1924

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Re: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2016, 11:28:35 am »
Weeeeeel, the photos were taken under 240 watts of electric light with the sun coming in the windows, so it looks pretty light.

I do have the receipt from The Bazaar in Oxford dated 1970. The description comes from him.
"I collect antiques because they're beautiful."

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ghopper1924

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Re: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2016, 11:30:36 am »
On a higher end of scale is Marhamchurch antiques in GB, he sells a TON of early english oak pieces, on 1st page of current stock is listed 9 early boxes for 2900 lbs
http://www.marhamchurchantiques.com/current-stock/all/

Wow, great price! I love Marhamchurch.
"I collect antiques because they're beautiful."

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jacon4

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Re: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2016, 11:47:12 am »
Yeah, good guy and knows his english oak. He's VERY conscious about marketing to the states and Yanks via a Thomas Dennis connection in Devon england, where Dennis served as an apprentice before coming to america. Look for sales next month at marhamchurch, he offers 50% off and more depending on object to clear his inventory out.

mart

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Re: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2016, 07:38:33 pm »
Those feet came from another piece and were modified for this chest !! You can see they were turned at some point but the bottoms have carving marks that says they were made smaller for this application !!  Is that bottom trim added to the chest or is it a part of an added bottom for the feet ??  English items are difficult to date because they tended to use the same methods for longer periods than here in the US !!  They did not like change !!

KC

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Re: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2016, 12:16:14 am »
Nice piece.

Love the Marhamchurch site.

Please explain to me why this is a silver chest grasshopper1924.  I have seen some fine boxes like this over the years and they were explained as linen boxes, spice boxes, etc.  As a lover of most things silver...I would like to learn about this.  Thanks!
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ghopper1924

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Re: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2016, 03:49:33 am »
Those feet came from another piece and were modified for this chest !! You can see they were turned at some point but the bottoms have carving marks that says they were made smaller for this application !!  Is that bottom trim added to the chest or is it a part of an added bottom for the feet ??  English items are difficult to date because they tended to use the same methods for longer periods than here in the US !!  They did not like change !!

Do you think the feet are as old as the box?  The trim around the bottom was added...probably in the mid 19th century.
"I collect antiques because they're beautiful."

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ghopper1924

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Re: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2016, 03:52:05 am »
Nice piece.

Love the Marhamchurch site.

Please explain to me why this is a silver chest grasshopper1924.  I have seen some fine boxes like this over the years and they were explained as linen boxes, spice boxes, etc.  As a lover of most things silver...I would like to learn about this.  Thanks!

KC: That is the name given to the chest by the Oxford dealer. The inside is plain,so no help there. Perhaps it's because of the greater height? If you look at the link for the multiple boxes that Jacon posted, those boxes look quite a bit shorter. Therefore: more height, more silver? Just a guess.
"I collect antiques because they're beautiful."

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jacon4

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Re: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2016, 04:15:20 am »
Love the Marhamchurch site.

Yeah, THE place to purchase early english oak, no doubt! Particularly at his year end sale event where much of his stock is sold off at cost! Where are our limey people? would have thought they would have posted by now.

English items are difficult to date because they tended to use the same methods for longer periods than here in the US !!

True, up to a point. To an experienced english early oak person, you can pretty much tell what part of GB the piece came from and the period it was made by the carving patterns. Take Thomas Dennis as an example who apprenticed in england, his carving in america is VERY similar to the shop in england where he learned the trade.

Value
Generally speaking, early english pieces do not have anywhere near the value that similar pieces that are american do. This is most likely do to the rarity of early american pieces, there just were not that many of us here in the early years compared to GB and so the supply of early objects is MUCH smaller.
I would guess $500 or so for this box in today's market. I do not think the feet are that big a deal even if not original, they could easily be removed. Additionally, it is not unusual for pieces that are hundreds of years old to have repairs/alterations to their original form, matter of fact, quite normal.

mart

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Re: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2016, 05:51:22 am »
Feet and trim probably added at the same time !!  If just the feet alone you could see where they were attached and that they were not original.   The trim was added so you couldn`t see under it so well !!  Now why they were added is anyone`s guess !! 

Silver chest was a blanket term for any type of chest for small valuables !! Could have been a few pieces of silverware or coins or anything else they considered worth money !!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 05:51:51 pm by mart »

Ipcress

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Re: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2016, 11:22:43 am »
Good thing I don't have to use the word "pilgrim" with this!
Thank God, It's an american term!

Hmmmmmm, i am not so sure about 1620, the color is awful "light", it should be much darker. It's a boarded box, i don't see scribe marks for layout of carving. Course, it is english and out of my field of interest & knowledge, where is what's his name that lives in GB, he should be able to help out here.

Here is link to Jan & John antiques page, they specialize in early english oak, saw 2 boxes for sale there recently
http://www.jmaggs.com/Furniture-Gallery.htm

And the Victorians loved to alter and carve extra designs on these things.

jacon4

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Re: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2016, 11:49:10 am »
And the Victorians loved to alter and carve extra designs on these things.

Yes they did, particularly in england. They ruined many a period piece with their "improvements".
 Jack Plane, who is very well versed in early english furniture writes a blog i read, did a post on "Vicobethan" alterations, it's rather shocking to see this sort of thing, WARNING!!!
https://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2014/11/29/picture-this-xxxix/
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 12:20:58 pm by jacon4 »

ghopper1924

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Re: 17th Century English Oak Silver Chest
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2016, 03:55:21 pm »


And the Victorians loved to alter and carve extra designs on these things.
[/quote]

Yep.

But to their credit, they may have been hamfisted but alot of the Victorians genuinely loved 17th century stuff.

Kind of like people in the mid 20th century putting aluminum sheet metal facades over Victorian buildings. Hideous!

Well, I'll be honest with y'all. If Jacon's value is right, then I took a bit of a hit on this. Nothing major, but kind of disappointing. Good thing I love the box anyway! ;)

 
"I collect antiques because they're beautiful."

-Broderick Crawford