Signed 18th - 19th century oil painting? Project!

[mart]

Who said that there might be numbers at the end of the last name? If that were true then it would all make more sense.

Benbenny did somewhere in this thread !!

[ghopper1924]

Ahh...."Two Names Followed by a Year."

There you go! Looks like Ipcress was right.

[Ipcress]

https://media.mutualart.com/Images/2012_11/21/12/122716694/2b732bf1-60c4-469a-93c9-1293f7645fa5_570.Jpeg

The rocks in that are painted in a similar style. Muted tones in both paintings.

Might be him, might be a follower but the signature is possibly followed by a date or location ( Dean sometimes wrote one or the other )

[Chrislondo-London]

The signature is Frank Dean
It is similar to a few of his paintings
If you read my post, i said it might not have been  painted by Frank Dean

Example

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/keys-aylsham-salerooms/catalogue-id-srkey10056/lot-38eecd7b-3556-4e5b-b7a1-a4440046dbea

Signature

http://www.tate.org.uk/art/images/research/831_10.jpg

To say that signature doesn't even come close is incorrect. The same " font ", the same drop on the K.
He painted some very grand, expansive paintings but i've appraised and valued enough in my time to know that saying this isn't him could be a mistake similar to which you warned Mat about in another thread.

Still not convinced.

A signature is like a fingerprint and gives away clues, Ive copied the picture and draw over it and was not a match. Best way to identify a signature.

BenBenny, you need to look for a artist that signs his first name with a loop in the letter K,   Frank Dean never used a loop in the K, not in a early period and also not in a later period. Think the last name should end with double LL or TT, could also be a H.  Also not sure his last name starts with the letter D, it looks more like a P or a R, difficult to tell.   

Think your right about the date after a signature, can see something what looks like the number 02 to me but not sure. 

Use the same method shown below and I'm sure you will find out who the artist is.   Take a sheet of paper and write down the possibilities and go trough them one by one. There are plenty website artist databases like FINDARTINFO, ARTNET, ARTPRICE which you can use, you can't use all the tools on thsee websites if your not subscribed but you can do general artist searches. It would be ideal if you know somebody who is native French. They have more experience with French lastnames and can help you on the right way




 

[Ipcress]

" best way to identify a signature "

when you can't see that signature clearly ?

[Chrislondo-London]

" best way to identify a signature "

when you can't see that signature clearly ?

Yes! Especially when it's unreadable! All the best auction houses and expert use this simple method. You can mimick the handwriting and find clues.


It did help!  It proofed your were wrong along with you forum buddy's who thought you were correct.. Swallow the facts mate, we all make mistakes.

Two so far agree with you on Frank Dean. I say its not! Proof me I'm wrong.

Yes, I know!! I don't care!
Try it! It's liberating!

[Ipcress]

Oh, get over yourself.

I've worked for big auction houses and nobody used that method. I've appraised museum collections which have gone to auction and set record prices.

Meanwhile, you're trolling on an internet forum and making snide remarks. And here's my " proof " :

Despite stating on the previous page that it might be a follower of Frank Dean and not actually him, you've ignored that - such is your eagerness to prove ( that's how you spell it in the past tense, by the way ) someone wrong and win the argument like a schoolboy.

My " buddies " on here know a thing or four about antiques and have never been so condescending and immature when discussing an issue like this.

[mart]

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/on-the-irish-coast-37867

In Ipcress defense,, artist signatures can change and evolve throughout their career !!  And much depends on the mood that artist was in that day !!  Here the F if different but the K remains the same and notice the D looks very like a P on first glance !!  You also have to take the texture of the canvas/medium into account !!  Rough medium will look different from a smooth surface !!
There are enough points for a Frank Dean signature !!
Chrislondo-London can you come up with a better one ??

[Chrislondo-London]

Did i hit a sensitive spot?  Still not convinced.

I learned not to trust auctioneers. They make every day big mistakes and never admit they are/were wrong!  Must be a reputation thing. 
 

Ghopher1924. That signature doesnt come close. Show me a signature of Frank Dean with a loop in the K.    The last name is to long to be Dean.  Fact!

[KC]

Welp...I did the signature line thingy that Chrislodo-London suggested several times...and it always comes out Frank Deane??
There are artists with the last name PEAN but no Frank!

I am sure there is more than one Frank Dean in the world!

Did the "renowned" Frank Dean only sign on the left side of the painting?

Chrislondo-London, since you feel so strongly about this maybe you can help benbenny007 find a reputable "hands on" appraiser that you feel would best help them. Are y'all near eachother?  (I believe you are both in the UK and know it is really big but you may even be in the same city?!?! area?!?!?)  There is only so much that can be done with a picture and the actual item isn't in hand.  Hopefully it would be worthwhile to get a hands-on appraisal.

[mart]

Excellent idea KC !!  They are in the same city I think !!  Please post a link to the gallery so we can read the results !!  That should be a simple task for both of you !!

Did i hit a sensitive spot?  Still not convinced.

And no !!  No sensitive spot !!  Just pure logic and a bit of knowledge !!

[ghopper1924]

Ghopher1924? LOL!!

At least spell my "name" right!

Time to put this one to bed.

[Ipcress]

I'm not convinced it's a loop in the K. If we were to consider every black line as part of the signature, i can see umlauts and a line which connects the N and K.

It's a faded signature with a photo take at an angle and some of those dark horizontals are just the canvas stitches.

Dean put hyphens after his name, sometimes wrote the location or date and that's why it appears longer.

http://gallery.nen.gov.uk/asset658800_14080-e2bn.html
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2008/19th-century-european-art-including-the-orientalist-sale-n08431/lot.148.html

( both upper case )

https://static.artuk.org/w1200h1200/WYL/WYL_LMG_012_021.jpg
https://static.artuk.org/w1200h1200/WYL/WYL_LMG_039_03.jpg

( lower case, the latter with a date )

https://cdn.globalauctionplatform.com/ca6ad7b5-a793-4ffe-8be6-a68601114cf3/2963fc01-9b9e-454e-863d-a6860114dd68/original.jpg

( upper case with a full stop, slash and date )

So what you presume to be letters of a longer surname could be full stops, hyphens or numbers


Finally, these  two paintings

http://images1.bonhams.com/image?src=Images/live/2011-05/12/8312743-1-3.JPG&width=640&height=480&autosizefit=1

http://www.hoteldesventesdegeneve.auction.fr/_fr/lot/frank-dean-1865-1947-paysage-automnal-au-moulin-huile-sur-carton-signee-et-7554354#.WMNQcaJBrIU


More impressionist, like the one from the first post in this thread

Some auctioneers have listed his dates as 1865 to 1907 but that last year is when he flourished ( 1885-1907 ). He was born in 1865, died 1947.


The painting might even be France, where he lived in his late teens / early 20s.

[mart]

That 02 may indeed be an 07 !!

[Chrislondo-London]

I'm not convinced it's a loop in the K. If we were to consider every black line as part of the signature, i can see umlauts and a line which connects the N and K.

It's a faded signature with a photo take at an angle and some of those dark horizontals are just the canvas stitches.

Dean put hyphens after his name, sometimes wrote the location or date and that's why it appears longer.

Still not convinced. It clearly shows a loop in the letter K which Frank Dean never did.
Also the letters A and N in the last name of Dean (if it is Dean) should be the same style as in the First name Frank, doesn't look like its a match. My guess is that it's a lastnames with double LL OR TT.  Otherwise their should be a space the last name and the following work like in every other works signed by Frank Dean.
 
Facts show else and you cant deny facts.
I don't come here to argue, tmnothing wrong with critics,  just want to help.