Early 18th Century Walnut Table

[cogar]

KC, I enjoy the “historical” trivia, such as:

“The American chestnut once comprised 25% or more of the Native Eastern
Hardwood Forest.” American Scientist (1988)

“Chestnut was perhaps the most widespread and abundant species in the
Eastern United States since the last glaciation.” USDA Forest Service Southern
Research Station.

Along with the bison and the passenger pigeon, the American chestnut forms an iconic triumvirate of the grandeur of the American wilderness and the devastation that human activity wrought upon it over the
past three centuries. Just as the bison was the preeminent large mammal on the continent and the passenger pigeon the most abundant bird, so is chestnut often described as having dominated the eastern forest (or across its geographic range) prior to its destruction by an introduced Asian chestnut blight.

Read more @  http://highstead.net/pdfs/2014-72-2-american-chestnut.pdf

[jacon4]

Yeah, the Chestnut trees came to a sad end, after they caught the blight within a few years, they were all gone.

[mart]

Enjoying this thread!    Afraid I don't have anything to offer for insight.  Really like the table!!!!

Well, it's early but more important, it's "splay" legged which, Chris correctly states, coveted by collectors because they are rare. My feeling on this table is, it's a period PA table with a replaced top. If i can get it for the right price, consider it done! If the top is not original, that kills the deal for many collectors and price reduction as well. I am not that picky and very accepting of 300 year old pieces, very few of which have no issues, it's the form i want, i don't have one!

Not a good view but I do not think the top is a replacement !!  The entire table just fits too well !!  Properly balanced,, top is proper size for the form !!  Personally I think its all original !!  Still not sure its quite that early but I would buy it !!  On the other hand,, that table from the museum I would not touch with a 10 foot pole !!  Just look at it,, its one of the least graceful tables I have ever seen !! 
Now to the green oak debate,, I don`t care how many pegs, pins you put in green oak,, it still will shrink and you can see it in those dovetails !!   I mean that moisture has to go somewhere,, it does not stay in the wood unless it is sealed in some way !! This one is as it should be,, wood cured and all joints fit and are tight !!  Drawbore joinery just makes it more stable for years of use !!  It keeps the joints from shifting which will cause them to become loose over time !!

[jacon4]

 I mean that moisture has to go somewhere,, it does not stay in the wood unless it is sealed in some way !!

Yes, eventually the oak dries out but, if it was riven along it's natural plane, and i know this sounds weird, it is incredibly stable and it stays that way virtually forever. Look at some of the chests & wooden objects at Marhamchurch, some of them are 500 years old, the joinery is as tight today as it was the day it was built. I bought a stool about 5 years ago built by Peter Folandsbee, resident joiner at Plymouth Plantation, it was built from riven wet oak just the same way joiners did in 1500 and with the same tools, it has not split, cracked,cupped, checked, or shrunk in almost 5 years now. The only difference i can tell is, it's quite a bit lighter from drying today than when it arrived wet 5 years ago. If you build furniture with green, wet riven oak, it is virtually indestructible. The only thing that can damage it is, bugs & fire. It is weird i know but, it is what it is!

https://www.marhamchurchantiques.com/

[jacon4]

I am going to visit this table personally TODAY! it's only 100 miles away so not far. Dad on the hunt, may the force be with me!
And guess what? the old woman doesn't know as much about oak as she thought she did!!! now go to the corner and sit on your stool!!!

[cogar]

I don`t care how many pegs, pins you put in green oak,, it still will shrink and you can see it in those dovetails !!

 

Mart, as you probably already know, the ole-timer chair builders depended on the oak “shrinking” to prevent their chairs from falling apart.

For descriptive purposes ONLY, please refer to this chair, to wit:



Please note the chair legs and spindles,

In ole-time chair building, the legs would be fashioned out of “green” oak and the spindles would be fashioned out of dry “seasoned” oak with a per se “ball” carved on either end of the spindle.

A hole, the same diameter as the spindle “ball” would be drilled into the chair legs and the spindle “balls” would be inserted into their respective leg “holes” and the chair was set aside to “dry out”.

And after the chair legs dried out, the wood shrunk up so tight around the spindle “balls” that it was damn near impossible to remove the spindle without breaking it. 

[cogar]

(Reply #10) Not if it was "riven" or split when green. Oak that is riven is split along it's natural "radial plane"

Just as I figured, your use of the word “riven” to describe the “split” lumber is the same as using the word “quartersawn” to describe “sawed” lumber.

To wit, all that you need to know about “wood shrinkage”:

As a general rule of thumb for most species, the tangential shrinkage is roughly double that of the radial shrinkage, which translates to an average T/R ratio of about 2.

This helps explain why quartersawn boards are considered more stable than flatsawn boards: with quartersawn lumber, the thickness of the board is doing the majority of the shrinking or swelling, with the face of the board exhibiting minimal change in width—a useful characteristic for applications such as flooring planks or workbench tops.

Source:  http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/dimensional-shrinkage/

[jacon4]

To get a better idea of how furniture was built out of riven oak here is a short piece by peter follandsbee that describes the differences in how oak is processed. This was the way furniture was built for centuries until cabinetmakers came along in the 18th century. The fact that a lot of 500 year old riven oak furniture is still around in europe today is proof of it's durability and strength, VERY tough stuff.

https://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/theres-oak-then-theres-riven-oak/

[jacon4]

Cogar, i feel like i am beating a dead horse here, yes, of course there will be shrinkage but you can't see it! It's like looking for "rays" or figure on chestnut lumber, unless you have a microscope handy, it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!

Here is a longer article by peter about how this oak is processed for those interested

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/the-best-oak-money-cant-buy

[jacon4]

This helps explain why quartersawn boards are considered more stable than flatsawn boards

Yes, but RIVEN oak is MUCH more stable than quarter sawed plus it has MUCH more figure or "rays" in the finished boards. To fully understand the differences in how this works, you gotta study how this timber was processed way back when. It's a long lost art of woodworking with only a very few people in the world that process timber this way.

[mart]

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-and-moisture/

Jacon4,, go back and read the part of the popular woodworking article where it says, "Now Wait" !!  Both articles you gave just prove what I was saying,, wood will shrink !! Its inevitable !!  The amount of shrinkage depends on many things as well as what you are going to use it for !!  Keep in mind I am not talking about kiln dried wood !!
Where were all these woodworkers when I was burning oak in my fireplace !!  I could have made a fortune !!  Had 150 acres and 70% was white,,red and pin oak !!

[jacon4]

Both articles you gave just prove what I was saying,, wood will shrink !!

      Sigh, ugh. Yes, wood shrinks, it's organic. The point i was TRYING to make that 99.9% of people who are not familiar with this material do not understand is, old growth riven oak is more like stone than wood. Take this new riven oak stool i bought, when it first came it was very heavy & smelled like freshly cut trees, 5 years later the smell is gone & it's much lighter from drying out, aside from that? zero! nuttin! zilch! nada! And, if i had a micrometer it would probably measure that some shrinkage had occurred however, YOU CAN'T SEE THAT SHRINKAGE with your naked eye, hello?

[jacon4]

Didn't i put Martha on her stool earlier today? The old woman is trying to kill my buzz from the visit i made today to the splay leg table i am interested in.

OK, some observations, the left rear stretcher is blown out, not totally disconnected but almost, the top i now feel could be original to the piece which would be wonderful. Someone shot modern staples underneath the top at the point where the boards meet, perhaps in a clumsy attempt to keep them together. Other than that, which both above items are restorable, table is right as rain! The owner of the auction helped me remove the top & turn table upside down and in general was very accommodating to my examination. The bad news? Auction owner is putting off sale for 1 week, instead of this Sat. as originally scheduled, it's the following Sat, the 23rd because of hurricane Irma. He has lots of clients on the coast, Charleston & Savannah for instance, that were impacted by the storm. I HATE IT! I have to wait another week, more time for someone to discover the treasure i have found and snatch it away from poor ol' dad!

[cogar]

Quoting Jakon from Post #22 and #24:

The fact that a lot of 500 year old riven oak furniture is still around in europe today is proof of it's durability and strength,
-------------

Yes, but RIVEN oak is MUCH more stable than quarter sawed plus it has MUCH more figure or "rays" in the finished boards.

To fully understand the differences in how this works, you gotta study how this timber was processed way back when.

Jakon, I think you are overlooking the fact that the European furniture “makers” of 500 years ago had their choice of extremely large “virgin” oak timber logs, ....... which were also extremely “straight grained”, ….. and thus quite easy to “split” (riven) into “workable” size boards or lumber. 

And the “raven” lumber of yester year (500 years ago) was not actually more figural (with visible “rays”) than today’s lumber from similar size trees, …… the fact is the furniture “makers” of 500 years ago could easily “select” the split (raven) boards that displayed the most “figural” patterns.

The other fact is that large “virgin” timber logs with a diameter greater than 40” or 50” will produce far, far more “raven” lumber for choosing from ….. than will logs of 30” or less in diameter.

[talesofthesevenseas]

Great info in this thread! Beautiful table and it looks to be in great condition. Good score Jacon4!