Author Topic: Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup  (Read 5186 times)

tubularjuan

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Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup
« on: April 30, 2009, 12:36:08 pm »

 I have a Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup (very good quality no chips or cracks) and on the bottom of the tea cup there is a note hand painted, that say's ( sweet little Margaret Moore Died June 16-1912). I was wondering if  this would increase the price, or is it a more rare thomas Bavaria?????

KC

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Re: Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2009, 04:52:02 pm »
Please post pics of cup and marks on underside.  Need that in order to help determine age.
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tubularjuan

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Re: Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2009, 08:39:48 am »
Here are some pictures, sorry for the quality, not a very good camera, hope that this will help.  Jon

D&b antiques

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Re: Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2009, 09:04:45 am »
interesting cup. can you tell? if the written message is under the glaze ? I would like Chris Marshall & expert on German trade mark's too take a look at it.

KC

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Re: Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2009, 10:14:51 am »
Wow...D&b is bringing out the big guns!  Hooray!
I'm from the South - but please don't mistake my Southern Manners/Accent/Charm as a weakness!

KC

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Re: Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2009, 06:14:30 pm »
Is this a demitasse cup?
 Got that it is Thomas Germany or Fritz Thomas, Bavaria, Germany.  Started out in Marktredwitz Germany as the Jaeger, Thomas and Company.They split and later Thomas formed Porzellanfabrik F Thomas  which is still in existence today as Rosenthal Glass & Porcelain.

If it says Thomas in the middle of the 2 turns it is supposedly made in 1908?!??!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 11:31:06 pm by KC »
I'm from the South - but please don't mistake my Southern Manners/Accent/Charm as a weakness!

Chris_Marshall

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Re: Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2009, 09:19:25 pm »
KC: If it says Thomas in the middle of the 2 turns it is supposedly made in 1908?!??!

To be precise items with this mark were made between 1908 and 1939. Just as with the Rosenthal marks Thomas used that peculiar 'dot notation' to indicate year of production, however unlike the partially complete Rosenthal sheet I have never seen one for Thomas/Marktredwitz. [Guess]: It *may* be similar to the Rosenthal art department date sheet - that's just plain deduction as all other subsidiaries also match the art department layout instead of the main factory. I've never checked Thomas on that, though (time issue).

tubularjuan:

The mark type gives us a date span of 31 years; decoration style and body type are also plausible for a pre-1920 item. So far we have cornered that nicely: you have the manufacturer (Porzellanfabrik Thomas, town of Marktredwitz in Bavaria), a maximal ('mark run') period (1908-1939) and you have a good hint (likely pre-1920). Those are all valid and pulled up without the text underneath - looking at that, 1912 as date for that item appears perfectly possible.

Main question was if these additions in any way influence value. Normally not because these notes are not company additions - notes like on your item may be interesting for some family member and/or research purposes but otherwise such texts are irrelevant. Of course in family cases the normal sentimental family value may be higher in comparison to untexted items as it's in a sense a commemorative item. Which explains a few auctions were people out of such families were shocked to learn their treasured items were worth just the normal street price for an un-texted item. Anyway, I always take a neutral approach - as you could see: facts first.

Standalone note on why many people disregard these notes or may even get a bit agitated:

Problems with such text notes nearly always have to do with plausability and/or credibility. Some folks freak out or accuse owners/sellers without checking facts first ... why? You see, years ago it was only the faked 'manufacturer / decorator test' item or a commented trial firing relic or whatever. That already was quite a bother but then came eBay and suddenly every junkaholic tried to make money by bullsh*tting others at all costs. Guess how many people out there tried (and are trying) to sell 'old' items with some 'old' text underneath? Like the definitive 1950's German Sammeltasse with handwritten '1890 vienna' comment, for example. Thus, every out-of-the-norm item is per definition claimed to be suspicious. I find such items (valid or not) highly entertaining and interesting, many others are either not interested (anymore) or go ballistic (probably because they got cheated before). But it would be bad advice if I would not mention that there *are* people out there that really collect such items without making a fuss (probably nerds like myself only with money, lol!).

Hope that helps somewhat :)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 10:26:40 pm by Chris_Marshall »

ironlord1963

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Re: Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2009, 09:35:53 pm »
     Wow well done  ;D, that didn't even make my brain hurt    :o.   

KC

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Re: Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2009, 11:37:59 pm »
Thanks a million Chris Marshall.

2 sources I have (which are not the best) were saying the mark was used in 1908 but an old pic with a similar marked piece was designated later....thus the ?!?!?!?!? indicating that I wasn't going to the bank with that!

Thanks so much for your thoroughness!!!!!!!!

I'm from the South - but please don't mistake my Southern Manners/Accent/Charm as a weakness!

cogar

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Re: Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2009, 03:38:03 am »
Quote
That already was quite a bother but then came eBay and suddenly every junkaholic tried to make money by bullsh*tting others at all costs. Guess how many people out there tried (and are trying) to sell 'old' items with some 'old' text underneath?

If I may add something to Chris's statement above concerning "Buyer Beware"

There are also people out there selling 'new' items with 'old' text/logos underneath? Here in WV close to where I live there are some real experts in glass making, decorating, etching, engraving, etc. because they once worked in the glass plants. Every now and then a piece surfaces that an employee made for themselves and took home to keep or gave to someone as a gift. I once knew a gal who could “cut” just about anything on a piece of glass that you wanted her to.

Anyway, I know of one case where several new large marbles, 1” to 1 ˝” diameter, were obtained from a current employee of a glass plant and the person took them to an old retired employee along with several computer generated ‘old’ logos and that fellow “re-fired” those marbles in his basement kiln and they were “peddled” one at a time at local Flea Markets, etc. It would have taken an expert to figure out they were “faked” by another expert.

D&b antiques

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Re: Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2009, 07:04:23 am »
as alway's Chris thank you for your time & expertise !

D&b antiques

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Re: Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2009, 08:49:44 am »
Some second thought's. typically these are known as Memento Mori.or remember me cup's. if the writing was under glaze it was almost a have too have been done in the factory deal.

Most likely by & artist or worker. and there are collectors for this sort of thing.

tubularjuan

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Re: Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2009, 08:15:21 pm »


  Thanks for all the info about the cup. The quote is under the glass. Thanks KC for the info, I uderstand that e-bay has made everyone a antique dealer. My dad has been buying antiques for a couple of years so you will have to undertand, that we are both new to the world of antiques. I'm just helping him research of what he has. Thanks Jon

KC

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Re: Thomas Bavaria saucer and tea cup
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2009, 11:46:14 pm »
You are more than welcome.  All of us like to share what we do know and alot of times what we don't know as well.  We are willing to look into the unknowns and learn quite a bit ourselves.

You will make friends along the way on this site that you can't wait to share wits with and pick their brains!

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I'm from the South - but please don't mistake my Southern Manners/Accent/Charm as a weakness!