Chinese Cloud Collar - Age Estimates or Info?

[talesofthesevenseas]

I don't know if there is anyone here into antique Chinese textiles, but I would love to learn more about this piece. It is an antique Chinese "cloud collar" worn over the shoulders, point down, stiffened to stand out from the shoulders. It is hand embroidered and most of the symbols are longevity symbols. (chrysanthemum, butterfly, peaches, crane etc.) The peacock, which is front and center when worn, is symbolic of dignity and beauty. Below and left of the peacock is a Mandarin duck, symbolic of marital bliss. There is one lone bat, symbolic of luck, and the lotus flower symbolic of good fortune.

This one also has tiny metal-rimmed mirrors all over it.

I've been trying to read more about these and I so far I have learned that they were worn mostly by the wealthy and could take as long as one month to create. Quite often they were worn for weddings and I think that could be what this is, since we have the Mandarin duck and the peacock as central figures, although there are no dragons and phoenix motifs on this, which is typical of the husband and wife for weddings. I'm not sure what the tradition would be for a part of bride's trousseau.

Value-wise they typically seem to run about $200 - $500, the highest I have seen is $800. I got this one for $60.  

I'd love to hear anything from anyone on this! I think people quit wearing these about 1911, but I am not sure about that.

Lower point is the front that would lay on the chest


Front point, peacock in center, Mandarin duck below the peacock to the right

[regularjoe2]

Nice cloud collar , talesof .

I can't tell from your images , but there's a couple of areas that look like they may be seed-stitched - is this so ?

From what I can see (and can't see) , my guess so far is late Qing (1644-1911) dynasty , or post-Qing .

I'm curious to know what fabric is on it's backing (if any) .

FYI , wearing dragons on a cloud collar , in earlier dynasties , would get a person killed ( unless they were an emperor , or an emperor-'approved' member of his court/family [very rare] ) .
Sun & Moon images , the same .
Gold & silver too .

Such taboos were cast aside in more recent times , so textiles with these motifs can usually be identified as 'more recent' (unless they're the real deal) .

[KC]

Agree with regularjoe2 about the symbolism and because of that believe this is of more recent times.

[talesofthesevenseas]

I was thinking the same, that this was probably made during the end of the period when these were worn. The embroidery quality, while beautiful and detailed by modern standards, is not as fine or with the amazing detail that some Chinese embroidery pieces have.

No, there is no seed embroidery. It is all what I know as "satin stitch" but I'm not sure what the Chinese technique is called.
Here are some examples:









One interesting bit, is that the neck of the collar is constructed of an earlier, recycled piece of embroidery:



Yes it is lined, there are two layers, one that is some kind of a paper-like cloth, then a silk backing. the smaller "panels" still have the silk backing, it is not there on the larger panels. Here are two examples.

[regularjoe2]

Thanks for posting the additional pics , talesof !

In the first ones I couldn't quite find the 6 clouds on the lappets .

I'm guessing you already know that the piece is representative , when considered as a unit , of the 24 solar terms & the 4 seasons of each lunar year .

It does appear to me that the inner collar is not the same persons' work .
On occasion , a mother or a grandmother would give a bride a piece of her own (wedding) cloud collar to be added .... sometimes siblings/relatives would work on a cloud collar collectively .
The one thing that is certain - it's a whole lot of work to make one !

I think it's a pretty good guess to call this one wedding-related .

So many of the Cloud Collars were cut up & refashioned into other items , I'm always glad to see another that's mostly intact ( it's not as if they're cranking out hundreds of these anymore ) .

[talesofthesevenseas]

Thanks for that info! That would explain why the collar is from an older piece! The embroidery on that is very different in style and much more fragile. The threads have a different feel to them and the design is only partially visible. I had been wondering why someone would spend such time creating a collar, but then recycle in an older piece so obviously. But that makes perfect sense if they were honoring their mother or grandmother. I've only located very general info on cloud collars, so I'm very glad to learn this kind of information about the traditions behind it.

Where are you counting the six clouds? I thought that the cloud motif was incorporated into the shape of the lappets, but there are five of those, so I must be missing something.

[KC]

Just a little more background information...the cloud collar (known as yun chien) and has existed for thousands of years....pre-mongul. 

Originally a 4 lobed collar representing clouds  (they can have even up to 8 lobes) ....it was thought that the body was the axis (representing the earth and material things)...the hole in the collar was the sky gate....the neck/head fits through the hole in the collar representing the spiritual part of the body.  This goes along with the belief that the Sky Gate separate the material world from the spiritual one. 
They were originally worn only by noblewomen and during the Qing dynasty were worn by women with social status.  They eventually were worn by the more common women and on festival days by a young girl whose mother  made/embroidered it with six flowers and six insects (selected designs to represent promising success; propitious; opportunity; favorable) as a sign of good wishes for her daughter's future.

I have 2 adopted children from Russia who are 1/2 Russian and 1/2 Kazakh (Kazakhstan - which was originally a part of Mongolia) and have come across this over the years.

[yunjian]

Hello, I'm not sure whether you are still looking for information.
I was interested to come across your lovely example of the cloud collar - I am currently working on a PhD on Chinese dress at the University of Oxford, and have been researching cloud collars quite extensively. I'm actually giving a talk on the subject in Oxford, UK, (not sure how accessible this is for you!) see 21st Oct
http://www.oatg.org.uk/programme.htm
You have a very nice example - the trimming of tiny mirrors is particularly unusual, though I would have thought this feature suggestive of 1890-1910 or so dating.
By the late 19th century, not just wealthy women but also middle class women would have worn this object - indeed by this period, it was considered a key aspect of marital dress. Whilst many were made by the bride as part of her trousseau, cloud collars were also commercially produced by professional, often male embroiderers.
The cloud collar dates back to at least the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368) - a very lengthy time for any dress object to survive, and earlier prototypes do survive.
You have a very nice example, would it be possible to include these images in my research (solely for academic purposes?) I'd be happy to credit as you wish.

[talesofthesevenseas]

Yunjian, I would LOVE to have you use the photographs for your research and I would be very happy to give permission for the photos to be used any way you need them. Just let me know if there is anything I need to sign. I will email you also. Please let me know if you need more photos or close-ups of any part of the collar, I am very happy to provide them.

Thank-you VERY much for the additional information! It is great to know more about the collar, I am really glad that you found this forum and decided to contact me! I would love to know anything else you might be able to tell me about it.

[talesofthesevenseas]

Yunjian, your email address is hidden, I sent you a private message with mine so that you can email me. Looking forward to hearing from you!  

UPDATE: Yunjian just emailed me, so disregard the note above.

[talesofthesevenseas]

I just wanted to post another little update on this-

Yujian sent over some great information to me that gave me a much better understanding of the old, spiritual aspects of the cloud collar. To make a very long, very old story short, you have to think of the sky as an inverted bowl, with the cloud collar laying on top of it. The four points of the collar are the four directions- north, south east and west. The hole that is the neck of the collar, is the hole in the sky that leads to the spiritual realm. So cloud collars represent the entire universe in miniature.

I was able to contribute the photos and additional measurements to her research at Oxford, which I think was really cool. It's neat when a Craigslist find can turn into something like that!

[regularjoe2]

Right on , talesof !

It's fun adding to the history/data-bases (our own & those of others) ain't it !

[KC]

Kind of like the info I posted earlier? 

[talesofthesevenseas]

Very much so, but with lots of interesting details, yes.

[ironlord1963]

Tales is This the one you are going to place in a Shadow box?.   I will be really looking forward to seeing that.  Wonderful item