Author Topic: please help  (Read 1579 times)

johnjohn

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please help
« on: July 08, 2009, 11:20:11 am »
my grandad died and my nan died a few years ago and my family was having a clear out of some old stuff and came across these 2 vases and wondered if any body could tell me anything about them and what they are worth ,
the 1st vase is here and i cant see any chips on it








the 2nd one is here but has a slight chip on the top rim









thanks in advance for any help

luxetveritas

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Re: please help
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2009, 12:02:25 pm »
Ah ha! Something I am better at! So johnjohn, Chinese backstamps have been used since Chinese porcelain was first made. Almost at the same time the Chinese invented porcelain, they invented "copies" - either to honour, or to deceive for financial gain. You can any day find a 20th century identical pair of bowls, one marked "made in china", the other one marked "Kangxi Nian Zhi". Marks are still one of the best means by which to identify the period during which a certain piece of Chinese porcelain is made, whatever the mark actually say. Correctly understood it is like the fingerprint of the potter and his time. In order to learn more about your vases, you need to identify the backstamp. Mind taking a few more pictures of the bottoms of each? Making sure each picture clearly shows the stamp? Preliminary guess would be an early 20th century-1950's piece, but they could be earlier export pieces. I really would have to see the backstamp. Also, can you provide measurements? Thanks, and great vases!

talesofthesevenseas

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Re: please help
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2009, 12:23:34 pm »
I can help a little with some information:

On identifying your dragon:

(from another site, source link provided below)
"The dragon was, and still is, a powerful figure in most Asian cultures. However, what most Westerners call 'Chinese' dragons can be from any number of cultures, most prominent being Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese. They are also male or female. It can be difficult to determine which is which, since the art styles are so similar to the untrained eye. The easiest way to tell what country a picture, painting, sculpture, or article of clothing the dragon appears on is from, or which gender it is, is to pay special attention to the smaller details.

Across each Asian culture, the differences between male and female dragons are relatively the same. A female dragon is most easily distinguishable if she is carrying a sensu, or fan in her tail. However, if nothing is being held in the tail, there are other clues. The spikes on the female's mane generally have rounded points; also, they have thicker bodies and their snouts are straighter. A dragon carrying a war club or other club-like weapon in its tail is a male dragon. If there is nothing held in the tail, they are distinguished from the female by being longer and having a curved snout. Also, the male has a rigid, pointier mane. Check to see if the dragon you are viewing has horns. A male dragon's horns tend to be thinner at the base than they are at the tip.

The Chinese dragon, or lung, can have four or five toes. If it has four toes, then it is considered a common dragon; however, a dragon with five toes was the imperial dragon. In ancient China, anyone in posession of the image of a five-toed dragon was sentenced to death. This dragon is very precise, having a total of 117 scales.

The Korean, or mang, dragon has four toes on each paw, which can be confusing when trying to distinguish it from the four-toed Chinese dragon. The main difference between the Korean dragon and the Chinese dragon is that the Korean dragon has deer-like horns. And, if the picture is clear enough, or your view of the item at the right angle, and you have the time and patience, 81 scales can be found on the back of a Korean dragon.

Dragons from Japan, also known as tatsu, have three toes on each paw. Other than this, they do not differ from other Oriental dragons.

Vietnamese dragons are also known as ryo. Like the Chinese dragon, Vietnamese dragons have either four or five toes. A five-toed dragon is intended for imperial use, and a four-toed dragon is considered 'common'. Vietnamese dragons, unlike other Oriental dragons, breathe fire and also have wings.

Of all the differences between these dragons, they are still quite similar. Most dragons are depicted in white, black, blue, red, and yellow. And in many images of an Oriental dragon, the dragon has a pearl, its 'pearl of wisdom', held in its mouth, grasped in its claws, or tucked underneath its chin. This pearl symbolizes the power that enables the dragon to ascend to heaven."

Source Web site is located here:
http://everything2.com/title/How%2520to%2520distinguish%2520a%2520Dragon

The dragon on my Chinese wedding bed has just three toes, the bed is Chinese, Fujian province, but it belonged to a common family about 100 years ago and the dragon is symbolic of the groom. It is also stylized and abstract, not showing too much detail, again because this was a common family:


About the other symbols around the dragon:

I think that the symbols surrounding the dragon are "ru yi" symbolizing authority, but I will let someone more experienced make that call. You can see one by my dragon above too.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 12:28:42 pm by talesofthesevenseas »
Antiqueaholic in recovery

luxetveritas

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Re: please help
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2009, 12:30:54 pm »
Good information regarding the dragon! I do believe that these are both Chinese, based solely on the backstamp and the design, but the dragon certainly confirms this! Again, a better picture of the backstamp is the only way to accurately determine the age and history, based on pictures that is (although the shape and style is often a good clue).

johnjohn

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Re: please help
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2009, 11:14:11 am »
thanks peeps, i will take some closer pictures and clearer ones of the stamps