MORE GUY STUFF! Beer Tankard- Age/Origin?

[talesofthesevenseas]

OK gang, grab a cold one and tell me what you think about this one. I posted it up on a beer stein collector's forum a few years ago, here are some comments:

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[1] "blockzin" [one 'n'] was a mark used in Germany to indicate the pewter was from the finest English tin, [or equivalent to it], the French never used it"!!.... [2] the Germans used this mark a lot in conjunction with the angel stamp for quality.... [3] her stein is not 1700's; it's first part of 1800's. more specifically, I would put it about 1840's.

Indicators are [a] the swirl/twist design on the lid.. this is a rococo style that didn't start in Germany until the late 1700's and continued into the 1800's. usually seen on coffee and tea pots... the same rococo swirls/twist is on the thumblift, [I've never seen an authentic stein with this from the 1700's....... [c] the small flat plateau of the pewter just on top of the hinge is it's worse give away.. they didn't do this style until about 1830's, and continued into the 1860's

Of course none of this fully guarantees that the stein is even that old--- as the German pewter makers were copying everything way up into the 1920's when the market and the world finally crashed.

I have two older tankards with very similar hinge and thumblift placements. One is dated 1793 and the other is dated 1809. Yours has an interesting fluted ball thumblift with complimentary fluting on the body and lid. I found a picture of a tankard with similar (although more elaborate) fluting in a reference book and the one in the book was dated 1723. You are right that closed hinges were used prior to the mid 19th century, unfortunately they are also used today by any manufacturer trying to recreate the older look to the hinge mechanics. Overall, your tankard looks to me like it is from between the late 18th and the mid 19th century.

my guess would put this at just prior to 1900, but I am no expert on these.

I am no expert on pewter steins, but I doubt that it it is anywhere near 18th century in origin. First clue is the word "fabrique". They would not use something like "made in france" in those days. Also the word "Zin", which probably means pewter (although Germans spell it with two n's), is not likely to be written on a piece in those days. I feel it is a 20th century piece, maybe produced before WW2, but may even be later still. Fellow collectors, do not spare me if I am totally wrong about this one...

The touchmark showing the angel with a sword in one hand and a balance in the other indicates the pewter is lead free. This touchmark began to be used in the 1700s. Sometimes a palm frond and trumpet are substituted for the sword and balance. The touchmark on the handle may be the makers touchmark. In the 1800s, it was common to stamp pewter with Feinzinn or Englishzinn.

You might follow up on the stamped flowers on the inside bottom of the Tankard. This Rosenmarken or Rosenstemple is also a quality mark and indcates That fine pewter was used.Holland,France,Germany and England all used these marks.In the 1600's a Crown was used in Ger.and in the late17th and 18th cen.a bed of flowers was used. Blockzinn was a term used in the 18th cen.to indcate that an item was made of good quality pewter. Bob

I found an article that said the angel with the sword and balance was used in the 1700's.

"...If you look at the end of a hinge, and it is smooth with no pin showing, that is a closed hinge. If the pin shows as a small circle in the middle of the hinge, that is an open hinge. Basically the closed hinge was used until 1870-75 when the open hinge came into general use. Because this didn’t happen overnight and the open hinge was phased in gradually over a number of years you will find there are a number of opinions as to when it actually took place. I personally have never seen a stein, verifiably made before the Franco-Prussian War, with original pewter, that had an open hinge."

*** End of Comments ***

Needless to say, I haven't got a clue! Here is the stein in question:



Touchmarks on the bottom:



Up close on each on the bottom:
FABRI
QUE
MARCH?
BAU?
MO???
D???


Angel with trumpet and scales


Block Zinn


Shield touchmark on the handle




Raised flower inside:



Lid of the stein with lion and castle touchmarks:


Any thoughts on this one?

[ayashe]

Wow, it is simply gorgeous. I'm afraid I cannot help you, I just had to say I love it! I actually ordered a used book off the internet the other night about pewter touchmarks, so when it arrives I will have a flip through and let you know if I find anything! The book I ordered is Phaidon Guide to Pewter by Vanessa Brett. Hopefully it will have some info... 

[talesofthesevenseas]

Thanks Ayashe! That would be great. It is tough with some of these touchmarks being so faint. I think from the previous forum we worked out pretty well the BLOCK ZIN touchmarks and angels being quality marks, but the age and place of origin are still a bit of a mystery. The lion and the castle look a lot to me like the ones on Spanish reales, and the word "fabrique" was used on an old Spanish sword I used to have, but I always think of steins as being German. It is possible it was made one place and sold another and its carrying touchmarks of both the maker and a seller.

I always get asked if I have ever had a beer in it... No way. Even though the old marks say it's lead-free pewter, I would hate to find out the hard way that it wasn't!!!

[luxetveritas]

Fabrique is actually a French word meaning "made". A lot of times you can see it on clothes, "Fabrique en China". However, in Spanish fabrique means "manufactured", which is why it's on your sword (probably the same in European Portuguese too). SO you have a few options to choose from I am not fluent in German, so I don't know if fabrique means anything, but I don't think so. The world just doesn't sound German any way I pronounce it.

[luxetveritas]

Actually, I think "bau" means construct in German, as in "Bauen Sie mich eine Brucke". Bauen is the command form, and also "en" in German is used for the conjugation of the we and he/she/formal-you form.

One thing I can help a little with is languages

[regularjoe2]

Nice tankard , talesof ....

What is it's liquid capacity ?

[talesofthesevenseas]

Thanks everyone, I have no idea on the liquid capacity, I never wanted to put liquid in it. It's pretty big by modern standards, I'll measure the height and diameter tonight.

[Chris_Marshall]

my seven Yen a.k.a. my two cents worth:

First of all, a 'stein' is the term used for drinking vessels made from stoneware (German 'Steinzeug'), hence the name. Later in history other ceramics (like Villeroy&Boch's Feinsteinzeug, a form of vitreous porcelain) also fell into that classification, but that's irrelevant. Pure porcelain tankards called 'steins' should cause a collector to start a war and pewter ... well: a tankard is a tankard, a cup is a cup and a glass is a glass - however a pewter tankard will never be a stein. Seeing that term used in context by 'stein experts' makes me cringe, but then I might add that most of those self-proclaimed 'experts' have no idea at all. Many of those stein guys feel like demi-gods; it's time the US stein collectors guild gets a big punch on the nose just like the Schlegelmilch porcelain group did after claiming 'expert' codswallop for years. But I am trailing off ...

[1] "blockzin" [one 'n'] was a mark used in Germany to indicate the pewter was from the finest English tin

The term is "Blockzinn" or "Block-Zinn" is correctly always used with double-'n'. The 'zin' with one 'n' as term for pewter was only used in the dialect named Althochdeutsch which died around 1065 A.D. or so ...

I have two older tankards with very similar hinge and thumblift placements. One is dated 1793 and the other is dated 1809. Yours has an interesting fluted ball thumblift with complimentary fluting on the body and lid. I found a picture of a tankard with similar (although more elaborate) fluting in a reference book and the one in the book was dated 1723.


'very similar', 'similar' ... It doesn't matter if we are talking Stein folks or not but especially when one talks of porcelain marks for example, terms like 'similar', 'looks like', 'near' are dangerous: all four wheeled automobiles in red are 'similar' to a Ferrari. And a second no-go: of course all people 'dated' their items: dated 1793, 1809, 1723. Sure! So if I today (2009) produce a commemorative Stein regarding the year of birth of my grandfather CSM the 1st ... presto! Instant *real* antique because it says so! It's dated, right? Never trust dates on items and never go with general comparisons (oops! paradoxon alert!). Funny examples: a '1824' mark found on an 'antique' bowl - the bowl was 1920ish and the four digits were the item number. Or check eBay for 'Dresden': folks there think every floral decoration looks like or is similar to 'Dresden florals', hence items made by a blind Turkish dude in Simbabwe that sport a floral deco showing Japanese snow flowers from Hokkaido are (of course!) 'Dresden' (or worse, Meissen-Dresden). Seriously, items with datings are very suspicious.

"fabrique" - well, French. But that lingo was 'hip' for ages; even the people in good ole Britain parlayed in froggy-lingo! And so did German aristocrats; French was spoken in wide areas of Krautland. Tons of manufacturers much later included 'borrowed' French, for example the "Staatliche Porzellanmanufaktur Meissen" between 1779 and 1790 actually called themselves "Churfuerstliche Porcellain Fabrique". Others re-used such terms to make their business appear 'old & renown'; the Wessel business in Bonn between 1755 and 1829 was also called "Churfuerstliche Fayencerie Poppelsdorf" aka "Poppelsdorf Faience Fabrique" even if it had next to nothing to do with the original 'royal' manufactory in Bonn. So that term also says nothing.

... This Rosenmarken or Rosenstemple is also a quality mark and indcates That fine pewter was used. ...

Nit-picker alert: actually the terms are 'Rosenmarke' or 'Rosenstempel'; those however refer to impressed/stamped marks, not applications.

---
Let me guess ... I've overdone it again, huh? Okay, I'll go and hide my ugly mug under my big black stone again. At least I have cable TV there!

[talesofthesevenseas]

Oh no please keep going this is great!! I've learned a lot already! I usually do call it a tankard, but thought that stein was more correct for a "beer holder" LOL! I will fix the topic title. Please do tell me more of what you think this is, I was pretty dazed and confused after the last forum. Thanks!

Any idea why I only have one N in "BLOCK-ZIN"? Too much beer perhaps? A guestimate on the age? Would love to hear more!

[luxetveritas]

Wow, you certainly know your stuff!! My gosh.

Anyway, the only imput I can add here is confirmation of "fabrique" used in England and Germany. Aristocrats often spoke French, using it as "the superior language". Even in Russia, everyone of high stature spoke French.

[D&b antiques]

Chris is one our Favorite and Honored Guest.and expert in his own right. of course all of our guest are welcome here.

[KC]

The other note of interest is the reason why pewter was used for tankards and eating utensils....For centuries it was the most popular material because it does not tarnish, rust, or break, and of utmost importance....it does not impart a taste to beer!

It wasn't until the 1700s that stoneware became more desirable since the materials were more readily available, easier to decorate as the material of choice.

[talesofthesevenseas]

I'm bumping this back up to the top for one more round- Did anyone have an opinion on the age of the tankard?
Thanks guys!

[ayashe]

I've gone thru my book and it's brimming with info, here's what I could find though I'm not sure I can offer more than the previous forum, they all know this stuff off the top of their heads! lol  Some of this stuff has been explained already in your post but I'm just typing out what my book says.

1. In ref to the quality: "The 18th century composition of the metal was denoted by a variety of words, sometimes included in the angel or rose marks. This practice was most common in Germany, Austria, Hungary, France & Switzerland..." bla bla... "Feinzinn, Probzinn; Alte Probe, to indicate that the piece has been recast from an old alloy; Blockzinn, Blocktin; Krozinn, usually a ratio of 15:1 or 12:1..."

2. Couldn't find anything matching your raised flower inside, but "The Bodenrosette [was popular] in Switzerland, Austria, Hungary, Germany, Eastern France. The design is varied and sometimes includes the initials of the maker."

3. The placing of marks: "A tankard or mug marked below the handle just below the hinge [was] a favourite spot for marks in Switzerland, Germany, and Austria-Hungary." (Very rare on an English flagon) HOWEVER, sometimes ownership of the flagons was indicated through touchmarks of a coat-of-arms, crest or badge of the family, or armorials, punched or engraved. Perhaps this is what's on your handle below the hinge?

4. I looked at all the touchmarks in my book and could only find a few that that could be close. One is the angels, which indicated the quality with her scales and swords (representing justice), and a shield that (kinda) has a similar shape to the mark on your handle. It's the stamp of Johann Jacob Sprandel (Ulm, 18th century) but yours is too worn to really tell. I almost found another photo of one of his pieces from an auction in Germany, but the photo has been removed! Would've been great to compare! Grrrr. Anyway, here they are. Hopefully you can make out something! So many of them are close, but no cigar...

[ayashe]

... The book doesn't contain any French touchmarks, otherwise I would've posted them too for comparison.