Nurnberg? Pewter Plate Help

[Dean Perdue]

Any input on age or origin is appreciated.
I looked up Norimbergia on the internet and think it's in reference to Nurnberg but the info was limited.
Thanks

[Skinny]

I would guess this is from Nuremberg Germany. Perhaps the name on the back is in the old native German spelling? Just a guess. Nuremberg was know for among other things, fine pewter work. I would also assume that the number on the back is the year this was made. That looks like the Imperial Eagle of the Holy Roman Empire, which still ruled Germany at that time. I could be wrong, we'll see what the others have to say.

[Dean Perdue]

Thanks alot skinny.
Seems like your always up on your history pretty well.

[ironlord1963]

     The one thing that bothers me about the numbers being the date of Manufacture, is it appears to be stamped.  I'm not exactly sure when stamping metal began to be used, but I would expects something that old would be hand wrought.  The condition seems to good also for being a pewter object of a Antique age.  Just an observation, to me it looks like a post 40's Decorative plate.

[Dean Perdue]

Thanks Ironlord.

To me it appears the whole plate was stamped and don't know that the numbers are the date.

Trying to look into pewter plates on ebay and came across one from 1778 that had the same measurement in diameter and depth.Who knows if that means anything though.Here's a link

http://cgi.ebay.com/Freiberg-Germany-1778-Pewter-Plate_W0QQitemZ370254575100QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAntiques_Decorative_Arts?hash=item5634e475fc&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

What surprises me is there are no others to be found for comparison or to learn about what time period it is really from.I thought it would be a easy task with the keyword Norimbergia but that has gotten virtually no results other than the original listing for this item.

I'll keep looking though.Not really expecting it to be from 1775 but knowing where it came from and what time period would be nice.

[ironlord1963]

    One thing is for sure, it was made as a decorative plate, not sure this would be to functionable as Dinnerware.  You said that the word Norimbergia had not results, bummer.  I will poke at it too but sure my results won't be better.  I assume that this is a historic town name, and maybe a special event year.  Maybe Prussia would be my guess, I believe there emblem was much like that, and would match the time frame around 1778.  I check into that too just for grins and giggles. 

[ironlord1963]

Found this little note on history

(1778 – 79) Conflict in which Frederick II of Prussia prevented Joseph II of Austria from acquiring Bavaria. After the death of the Bavarian elector Maximilian Joseph (1727 – 77), his successor, Charles Theodore (1724 – 99), ceded Lower Bavaria to Austria. Frederick II responded by declaring war (1778). There was little fighting because each force was concerned with cutting its opponent's communications and denying it supplies. Short on supplies, soldiers foraged for potatoes; hence, the conflict was nicknamed the "potato war." In 1779 Austria and Prussia signed a treaty giving Austria a fraction of the territory originally occupied.

[sapphire]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290340717569&SID=gtw4sc#ht_500wt_1182

scroll down to listing.

[sapphire]

Possibly a Passover Plate ??

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/679499

[ironlord1963]

Good shot shapphire.  I kept finding reference to this listing but couldn't quite grab it.  First let me forgive myself for my insight on the date of 1775.  i just noticed it says 1775 not 1778, confusion set it  .  Now I will have to go back to Prussia / Austrian history 101 ( actually 1775, but 101 sounded more realistic)  .  I did look into the Double headed Eagle, and found listing for it under Prussian and Austrian.  But nothing on the word Norimbergia, but sounds like it could be Nurnberg, considering it is in the Bavarian Area.   Still not convience that it is that old, and as for the listing on ebay no one bought it for $425.00, and they didn't seem to know anymore the we.  Sapphire I will have to check on what exactly is a passover plate.  This looks too military to me to be religious, but I'm the ignorant one here, but working on it   

[ironlord1963]

O.k. Just got my education on Passover plate.  That would be a special jewish plate design for 6 types of symbolic foods.  The posting that like to the plate was a good match on style to the current plate, but I don't think either would be considered a passover plate.  I have to look a bit more at the various passover plate but seem to Hebrew in origin.

[Skinny]

History is my thing . Norimbergia IS the old German reference to Nuremberg. Looked it up, it's the same place. That's where they had those war criminal trials after WWII. I don't think it's stamped, I think pewter is cast from a mold. No reason I can see that it's construction would red flag it against being 18th century. As far as value, my guess would be around $125. I'll bet there are quite a few of these things over there in Germany.

I would bet against this being a passover plate. I don't think the Imperial eagle fits that bill.

[ironlord1963]

Cool so Nurnberg it is.  Could be molded, but still from my angle I see pressed.  I don't think the construction is my only concern about it being 18th century.  Yes the stamped thing was the first, but condition would be another.  If this plate is about 250 years old, it was extreamly well cared for, pewter being a soft material usually won't hold this condition, esp. the details, note the texture around the eagle, if not totally protected and un used, that would be the first to wear.  Then to top this, pewter that old is extreamly rare, Pewter was one of the first recyclable material, it was used over and over, making new items with it.  Being a show piece this would be possible, but if so you would be looking at a extreally valueable and rare item.  I of course could be wrong here and am heating up my stove for so Crow stew here. but I still see a Tourist commerative plate that is post 40's.  And if you can find a true pewter item that old it is worth far more then $125.00.     

[Dean Perdue]

Thanks for all the help on this one.
How great is it to have all these opinions from collectors and people with a interest.

The link Sapphire tracked down is the seller I got this from.
Before getting it I looked long and hard for 6 weeks on the web,ebay,ebay Germany, and pewter plate sites to see if the price I was paying was a decent one,but came up with nothing for comparison.

I had the same thoughts as Ironlord but just could not find another.
In regards to the plate being in nice shape,it was surprisingly heavy and it would take allot to bend it.
There is a pewter hanger on the back that is cracked and under magnification shows heavy wear at the top of the loop so it was definately for display and not function.

Well old or not I liked it and thought it had great detailing and didn't see any others around so now here I am trying to find out some more if possible.Great insights from everyone and I really enjoyed all the history.Old or not I guess this is still what the plate represents.

Really appreciate the info from you guys and it is far more than I knew before.

Many thanks.

[sapphire]

ironlord, just a few references I came across regarding the use of the double headed eagle in Judaic symbolism.

http://jhom.com/topics/birds/double_eagle.html

http://www.thejewishmuseum.org/onlinecollection/object_collection.php?objectid=2460&popOver=largeImage

"The doubled-headed eagle is often interpreted as a political symbol associated with the Russian Empire. Several Eastern European artifacts in The Jewish Museum collection feature the double-headed eagle, including Torah shields and Hanukkah lamp; as well as a mold for pastries baked for the holiday of Purim."


http://ejmmm2007.blogspot.com/2007_07_01_archive.html


http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:019pXFxPwvsJ:www.magnes.org/opensourceblog/%3Fp%3D290+seder+double+headed+eagle&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=safari