Civil War Era Musket

[hosman321]

So, we bought this musket tonight. I'm not even going to say what we paid because if it's a totally ridiculous amount, I'd rather not have my heart broken just yet.

We can't find any info about these "band" things that are on the weapon. The owner said they have been on there for as long as it has been in his family, which has been many years. They are terrible, stapled onto the wood over two parts. They are very old bands, very primitive style. I took a flashlight to these metal bands and I can barely make out that some sort of paper was over the bands. One part of the paper reads part of a word "ARK." Another part has part of a triangle. What is the purpose of these old metal bands? Was the weapon falling apart long ago and they hold it together? They seem pointless.

The gun is apparently inoperable, the trigger sticks a little and he said it has never been fired since they have had it. It's very dirty but we don't want to touch it. We like all of the grime.
Any info is appreciated, we don't really know much about it!

[sapphire]

Hosman, is this yours?

http://www.gunsamerica.com/988251149/Guns/Rifles/Military-Misc-Rifles-US/Civil-War/Springfield_Model_1842_musket.htm

You can increase the size of the pic and also zoom in.  I see it has those bands as well, but not up as close to the trigger end
as yours.

[hosman321]

Sapphire,
That one looks like it has the normal bands on it that are supposed to be there. Ours has one of those bands, one is missing. But ours has 2 home made-type bands that are definitely not original or normal. Thank you for looking though, I appreciate the help.

[talesofthesevenseas]

Here is a blueprint for a Springfield model 1848:

[regularjoe2]

Hi hosman321 .

Saw the same one you got (?) on CL in Tacoma .

Hey , if you like it , what the heck !

Its a 45/70 , right ?

If I were you , I'd check & see if there's powder/ball/patch(es) etc. in the barrel .
You don't want to have that kind of old stuff in there !

[talesofthesevenseas]

Here is one ending at auction in 22 days with an auction estimate listed at the top if you want to see it. This one is described as being in "relic" condition.
http://www.icollector.com/Found-with-above-lot-Springfield-model-1848-69-caliber-percussion-musket-in-relic-condition-with_i8787091

But regardless of value... think of the history in it!!!! VERY cool whatever you paid!!

[waywardangler]

The metal bands hold the barrel to the stock firmly as these guns were usually military and took quite a beating and were also used to hold the ramrod.  Also one of the front bands would have a metal attachment for the shoulder sling and the other attachment for the sling would have been in front of the trigger guard (that looks like it is there).  The bands on your gun look homemade and may have been put there to strengthen the stock.  The front one is right where the stock is cracked.  Your gun is also missing the percussion nipple block and the gun is inoperable without this part.  It looks like a very historic gun to hang on your wall. I am more familiar with the 1873 trapdoor Springfield which I used to load and shoot for fun.  It was a blackpowder cartridge breechloader whereas yours is a muzzle loader.  Enjoy it and think of all the history that gun has been through.

[hosman321]

Thanks for all the info everyone. So someone probably added these extra bands just make it stronger as a precaution? Would something like this have been done in it's early days (maybe during a war) or are they more modern? It was defintely done by someone that didn't mind of they did damage to the gun. The staples themselves seem to have caused the crack. At first I thought they repaired the crack in the wood with the band. But the cracks are actually coming from where the staples go into the wood. So they actually caused a lot of damage. We're happy with it, even though it won't ever fire. Unless we were to repair it. It'll just hang on a wall and be admired for it's history and we'll have to imagine where it's been.

That CL ad is the same one we bought, he just hasn't removed his ad yet.

Oh and yes, it's a 45-70. Also, my husband and I are having a bet about whether or not this says 1843 or 1848. If I win I get another cylinder for my phonograph. Is that a 3 or an 8?
And tales, that auction estimate says $400-$900 for one that seems to be in about the same condition as ours. Except our metal and wood is in pretty good shape compared to his. We paid the low end of that estimate, so I'm happy. Thanks for taking the time to look things up guys, I was just really curious about those old stapled bands.

[waywardangler]

A 45-70 is a breechloading cartridge gun.  This is not a 45-70.  45-70 originally stood for a .45 caliber bullet (barrel bored and rifled for .45) in a brass case that held 70 grains of blackpowder.  This is a muzzleloader hence the need for a ramrod and a percussion cap.  If the staples caused the crack I would assume they added the bands to strengthen their original staple repair.

"The Model 1842 Percussion Musket was produced in both Armories from 1844 until 1855, and was a .69 caliber smoothbore with a 42 inch barrel. Springfield produced 172,000, and Harper's Ferry manufactured 103,000. This weapon was the first Armory produced Musket with completely interchangeable parts, and was the last smoothbore arm made in .69 caliber. About 14,000 of these muskets were rifled by the armories between 1856 and 1859.

The shape of an American Musket was fairly standard from 1816 until 1842, having a full walnut stock, a long barrel of 42 inches, and three barrel bands. The rifles were generally shorter and of smaller caliber. The adoption of an American Rifle-Musket was a compromise in caliber, with the large, "three-band" design persisting in the Model 1855 Percussion Rifle-Musket."

If your barrel is a smoothbore, you have a musket.  If it is rifled, you have a rifle.  Your date appears to be 1843.  A goood loupe will show you if that last number is a 3 or an 8 but the internet pics look like it is a 3.

[talesofthesevenseas]

Honestly firing an antique weapon is dangerous business. Unless it has been inspected and OK'd by an expert. There can be all kinds of metal fatigue going on that breaks loose under the stress of firing and then you have the possibility of death or injury. Firing period weaponry is a lot of fun and there are all kinds of muzzleloader clubs you can join, shooting events and all kinds of things with the period replicas. Personally I think its better to fire replicas to get the feel of what it was like and to retire, appreciate and admire the antiques as testiments to history.

I have the greatest respect for the guys that had to go into battles with the old flintlocks, now that I know how tempermental they can be. I can only imagine what it was like trying to reload, clearing misfires etc., all while someone is shooting at you! The percussion ones like yours are a whole lot more reliable.

Wayward or someone else correct me if I'm off on this, but I believe if it had been a military issued rifle it would have been marked as such with the regiment and state. However in the south especially things were a lot more haphazard, for example the uniforms if they existed at all could be homemade, often died with walnut, hence the term "butternuts" to refer to the Confederate soldiers. I THINK (again please correct me if I'm off) that some soldiers would bring their own rifles they were comfortable with. But without any known provenance I don't think there is any way to tell if it ever saw military action or if it was used to put food on the table. Even so, just imagine being out in the woods with your belly growling, taking aim and bringing down dinner!

[hosman321]

I agree with you tales, not only was this gun difficult to reload, it's just so heavy! When I actually lift it and aim at something, it's amazing how hard it is to aim at a target with all that weight.

I wish I knew if this thing ever saw a battle, maybe you're right about the regiment or something needing to be stamped on there. The only other markings are an eagle with a shield holding an olive branch with arrows and "US" under it and another "U.S." stamp. Is that just a Springfield mark or a military mark? Looks kind of military-ish.
I'll keep looking at sites to see if it did need a military stamp in order to be in a battle/war. we're going to go to Cabela's tonight to find some hooks or a rack.
Ooo I just looked this up. You know the really old paper/sticker I mentioned earlier...with the triangle and partial work "ARK". I looked it up and I found this picture from the Arkansas Regiment. 3rd Infantry. Cool! Maybe it was used in the war!
My husband suggested that maybe the bands were used to mark the gun with the regiment. Maybe a soldier did it? Someone without the actual machine to stamp it onto the metal. So, they put metal bands with these regiment markings. Makes sense since the bands seem so pointless. And maybe someone did bring their own gun into the war so it wasn't stamped properly. Then again, maybe a civilian did it? Someone at home? No idea, but I'm surprised still.

[Chinese Antique Furniture]

Man what a great looking gun!!

As someone else has already said, what ever you paid is AOK, because that gun is terrific looking.

[Texasbadger]

Unfortunately the history of the weapon will never be known, the stickers/paper are post civil war add ons, perhaps it was used for reinacting at some point, sometimes they were converted into shotguns for hunting, enjoy it as is and dont shoot it.

[hosman321]

The paper/stickers may be post war but they are definitely extremely old. I am estimating 100 years or more. I don't know if they did re-enactments that long ago, they probably did. They definitely were not put on within the past 50 years because the owner has had it that long and he said they look just the same as they did back then. I contacted Sean from Pawn Stars and he said he's going to help me figure it out. I'll let you guys know what he says. I am attaching pics of the paper. I have also been looking at a lot of pics online. Soldiers in the war did all kinds of strange things to personalize each weapon. I haven't seen this exactly but a lot of things close to it.

[talesofthesevenseas]

You know I wonder if those metal bands were recycled out of something else and those are the original product labels on the tins?