Author Topic: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?  (Read 6817 times)

JacksonT

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Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« on: March 28, 2010, 09:59:40 am »
This is a real painting not a copy and we beleive the frame is paper mache. Can anyone shed any light on its value please?

Size is approx 7" by 5".

I cant find any signatures on it although i havent opened it as it will decrease the value if any.



Thank You :).

talesofthesevenseas

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Re: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2010, 12:04:05 pm »
Wow, looks beautiful. Can you tell what the painting is painted on? If it is 18th century, as the woman's fashion would suggest, sometimes portraits were painted on ivory. Have you got a canvas or something else? Also photos of the reverse side would be helpful, to see if what the construction of the frame is.

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JacksonT

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Re: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2010, 12:33:52 pm »
Thank you for your reply talesofthesevenseas, we've looked at the frame abit closer and it looks more wood then paper mache. We arn't sure what its painted on, it's very shiny and you can see the paint so its definetly not a print. What do you mean by have we got a canvas?

Here's a picture of the back and a more clearer photo of the painting.




talesofthesevenseas

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Re: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2010, 01:03:36 pm »
If you tap it gently with you finger, does it feel like it is painted on something hard, like ivory,porcelain, wood,or, canvas?
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JacksonT

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Re: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2010, 01:11:09 pm »
It has glass so we can't really tell. With it having glass does that tell you its not antique or worth anything?

JacksonT

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Re: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2010, 01:28:38 pm »
BY looking at it again i'd have to say either porcelain or ivory but can't be sure without pealing off the felt stuff on the back and i dont want to do that.

waywardangler

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Re: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2010, 02:20:33 pm »
The backing is just to seal out dirt, dust, etc.  It does not add to the value of the painting/picture if it is there and it does not subtract from the value if it is removed.  The painting/picture would have to be looked at out of the frame to determine its' condition and what it is painted on.  With glass on the front how did you determine it is not a print?  I would not think glass up against any painting is good.  I would hope there is an air space between the image and the glass.  Ironlord should weigh in on this because I think he does framing.

KC

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Re: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2010, 03:02:55 pm »
I am betting it is probably painted on porcelain.....howev er, they even painted on firm pieces of bakelite when ivory was hard to come by.

It is a rather large painting...most miniatures were were much smaller that used ivory.  UNLESS you were saying that the frame itself was that big...then I am leaning towards porcelain or ivory.

These were very popular among the elite.  Was much more common in France.  Is there a signature?

Nice one.  Like the frame as well.

They did go through a time that item were made out of pressed papers during the 30's and on.....but I can't say as I have seen a pressed paper frame (but I bet they made them).  Have seen pressed paper furniture.  These are similar to trays I have that are pressed paper from the late 1940's.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 03:05:08 pm by KC »
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JacksonT

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Re: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2010, 03:34:04 pm »
Thank you all for your replies and information,  Taking waywardangler's advice we have removed the felt and took out the painting. It appears to be painted on plastic, as KC mentioned it must be bakelite? There is no signature. Is there still any value in this?

KC.....The size i mentioned was the frame, the painting itself is tiny maybe 3" by 2".
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 03:39:10 pm by JacksonT »

wendy177

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Re: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2010, 04:14:16 pm »
Jackson  test to see if it is indeed bakelite on the back on a spot clean of paint use a small dab of simichrome polish on a white cloth and rub it onto surface if polish remains  pink it is not bakelite if polish turns a yellow tobacco type stain you have bakelite.

talesofthesevenseas

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Re: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2010, 04:17:18 pm »
Be very sure that is plastic and not ivory. Plastic would be a highly unusual choice for an artist.

One additional comment on Wayward's comment on glass framed paintings. Watercolors are the exception. Those need glass to protect them.
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regularjoe2

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Re: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2010, 09:40:41 pm »
Although the jury is still out on this one , I'd say it resembles (strongly) some I've seen over in the European corner of the world , with manufacture dates in the 1960's-1970's .... at 'boot sales' & swapmeets .

As others mentioned about glass/frames & paintings .......

It's never a good idea to have actual physical contact between the surfaces .

The only exception to this (that I know of) is when the artist/manufacturer intended the glass as an element of the piece itself .

In the not-too-distant past , many items were framed without mattings and came in contact with condensation , molds & other icky stuff from the glass that was supposed to 'protect' them . The glass would often have some transfer of material to it's surface , especially if the framed unit was moved around a bit (road vibrations & so on) .

Many pieces of art today are fully framed and matted , including glass and poly-plastics on their fronts .

The old 'standards' of 'what you do with what' have changed a bit in the U.S. , with designers & environmental/preservation-minded folk .

It was cheap and quick to just stick a painting in a frame , seal the back & out the door .... this was very common for folks who 'did' their own framing too .

One cool part of this old method was that , with evidence of paint transfer to face-glass , sometimes one could authenticate the frame elements as being the original ones (in certain situations) .

KC

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Re: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2010, 09:55:32 pm »
A fairly good article....

http://www.oldandsold.com/articles01/article803.shtml


What is funny is that they just had a show on the Flea Market Finds tv program about miniatures!!!!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 10:06:39 pm by KC »
I'm from the South - but please don't mistake my Southern Manners/Accent/Charm as a weakness!

talesofthesevenseas

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Re: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2010, 10:50:27 pm »
Ya know, if this were mine, I think I would have it looked at by by a professional who can see it and hold it in person. Trying to work from photos, without being able to confirm the material on this one is tough. If it's a modern repro painted on plastic from the seventies, it wouldn't be worth much. But if you've got a early miniature it could be worth some serious bucks. That's my two ha'pennies worth!

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JacksonT

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Re: Paper Mache Frame - Real painting.....Value?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2010, 01:47:47 am »
Be very sure that is plastic and not ivory. Plastic would be a highly unusual choice for an artist.

One additional comment on Wayward's comment on glass framed paintings. Watercolors are the exception. Those need glass to protect them.

If it is indeed ivory wouldn't it be thick? Whatever it is painted on its thin and flexible. Being flexible should suggest its plastic or bakelite even? Wendy we'll try the polish later today, will any old dusting polish work?

Thanks for the info again people much appreciated :).