Opinions? 1600s Gothic medieval 17th century oak bible box

[ayashe]

Hi everyone, I am interested in purchasing this item off eBay. It is listed as a 1600s Gothic medieval 17th century oak bible box.

Item description is:

Old medieval 17th century gothic bible box.
Beautiful oak box dating from the 1600s.
In original condition, missing the lock.
The box is 57cms wide, 45cms deep and 28cms high.
There is about half a dozen holes from old borer.
All up in very good condition with a rich patina created over the last 400 years.

I was wondering if anyone could give me an opinion on its condition, it's authenticity or any other info I should know, and what a fair offer might be for me to make? It's for sale Buy It Now at $785 Australian (about $750 USD) but they have Make Offer available which is what's tempting me...

Link to auction: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400156755828&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI

Thanks in advance for any help! Photos should appear below...
 

[talesofthesevenseas]

It says local pickup only, so I'm guessing you're in Australia and are able to do that. I would use the Ebay message system, contact the seller and tell him/her that you are considering making a serious offer and would like to come out to see it in person. (You'll have to drive out to pick it up anyway) When you get there, look carefully for any signs that it might not be as old as they suggest. Remember you should be able to see distinct signs of hand tools and no signs of power tools on this box. Also be sure that the "bores" in it aren't such that it would devalue the entire piece. It looks beautiful. Best of luck!!

[ayashe]

Hi, thanks Tales. Yes, I'm in Oz and live about an hour from where the item is located.

How to tell it's authentic is the challenge for me. Your suggestions about looking for hints made by hand tools are a help. With other items like this I've noticed many of them are signed with initials or have the date carved in by the maker, which is why I wasn't sure what signs to look for with this one. Does this look like the 17th century era to you? I know what offer I make will depend on closer inspection in person, but what would be an appropriate offer? Is $785 a decent price for this item, assuming it's genuine? Thanks again for your time.

[talesofthesevenseas]

I'm not an expert, so we should let the folks here with more experience respond on the value and dating it. I would look at all the carving with a magnifying glass, looking for chisel marks and little inconsistancies in the carvings. It should have plenty of them, and lots of dark patina, plus wear on the places where hands have rubbed and leaned on it over the years. Beware of anything that looks "too perfect", "too clean" and precisely made. Look carefully at the construction. If there are any metal parts they should be individually forged iron.

[talesofthesevenseas]

Those hinges are setting off all kinds of warning bells to me. They look like modern ones with sloted woodscrews from a MUCH later era. That would indicate either that it is NOT as old as they believe, or that it was restored using methods not correct to the time period. Either way, that should give you some good bargaining points.

[talesofthesevenseas]

Also looking at the auction Web site, looking at the photo showing the arches on the sides, those are looking awfully smooth where I would expect to see chisel marks, more like the ones in front. Hard to tell without seeing it in person. It's possible that the sides and the front were done at different times.

[talesofthesevenseas]

Compare how crude and worn this 1652 example is (this one is selling for over $3,000 USD by the way) Enlarge the photos and look at the carved date "1652"

http://www.newel.com/PreviewImage.aspx?ItemID=2681&ImageID=6002

[hosman321]

Agree with everything tales said! Personally (and I'm no expert) it appears to be gothic revival. 1880's-ish?

[Julekpl]

Are there any nails used in making it? Nails are a great way of finding out if an item has been refurbished, or what era it is from. I does look old, but then, such items can be made in the medieval style. Like other people have mentioned before me, look for a date, or initials anywhere on the box, or maybe an insignia which represents the worker's signature. Such items are better viewed in person, I wouldn't risk it, but it does look like it was well made, to last.

[ironlord1963]

    One Nice box for sure.   Had to add my two cents worth here I guess.  The condition would seem to be very good for a box that is over 400 years old, and I would think it would be a steal at that price.  The Hinges do look a bit new for 400 years, I'm sure if it is that old those was replaced.  Personnally I tend to lean as hosman mentioned to the Gothic revival.  But when looking at the pic closer on the posting, some sure look like it could be 400 years.  I did look into the sellers history, and seems to know what they are selling and really good track record.  I would say that not only look close at the box, but ask questions and get a ideal of the seller disposition too.  Let us not forget to get as much about the history as possible too.  All in all in my opinion if you have the money to buy such a item and would really enjoy it, then do it.   

[hosman321]

I have another idea. Since the hinges are the big problem here, maybe this will help. If this box was refurbished with new hinges, there will be clear evidence. The hinges are definitely not older than the 1800's. If possible (but it may not happen) ask the seller if you can loosen the screws just a bit, enough to peek underneath them. If this was truly 400 years old, there would be evidence of previous hardware, like another set of holes. If they won't let you peek under the more modern hinges, then they know you will find something you do not like. I think those hinges are pretty small and 1600's hinges would have holes beyond the current ones. But maybe not. As you can see in this picture of my trunk (which is late 1800's) you can see where the previous hinges were. The old hinges were longer. Similar evidence would be on that box, in my opinion. My trunk is not a good reference for time period, just to show you how to look for evidence of original hardware.
Third picture down.
http://www.antique-shop.com/forums/index.php?topic=6794.0

[KC]

Looks more like a music box to me....bibles were generally bound.  THis looks like it holds pages in slots.

[ayashe]

Thanks everyone so much for your input. All of you have made such great observations.

hosman321: It was good to see some photos of previous holes, that will help me know what to look for. Thanks. =)

Tales: Yes, I think you're right about perhaps the front being older and the sides being newer.

I agree that it could be revival... the front looks more genuine to me than the rest of it, especially the hinges of course.

And yeah, KC, I wonder what the slots are for? I'm beginning to wonder if this was an old pulpit or podium of sorts and was maybe adapted into being a box and the only piece of it that's actually period is the front.

Thanks again everyone!

[KC]

Now I realize what it looks like.....a stationary box!!!!!!

It also could be a lectern box or ambos that fits on the top of the lectern table.  Does it have an notch in the bottom to attach to a table or wear marks?

The thing that bothers me is that there isn't a lip on the bottom of the slanted area to hold a bible - which is a typical piece for readable materials.  
Even missal stands have a lip on them.

[waywardangler]

I think everything talesof, KC, and hosman said is true.  I also think this may have been remade sometime ago.  The front is the oldest piece.  The carving on it is not the same as the sides and the wear is much more severe than the sides.  How would this happen?  The lid overlaps the front and if one was to pick it up to move it, the sides is where one would most likely grab to pick it up.  The sides exhibit almost no wear compared to the front.  Also the frontpiece by the lock mortise shows no chipping but the mortise is severely chipped out.  The flat boards on the slanted lid look like two boards and even the top narrow flat surface looks like two boards.  This would have been of an age where one single wide board would have been no problem to procure.  Also, why the big knot in the top slant on the most visible, conspicuous part of the box?  That should be the nicest piece of wood available.  Too many flags in my opinion.  The reason it is still sitting on their floor is everyone that has looked at it in person has the same feeling...it ain't from the time period claimed.