Author Topic: Vintage/Antique Sundial  (Read 4500 times)

khunn

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Vintage/Antique Sundial
« on: February 11, 2011, 04:38:15 am »
This just looks really cool and I would like to purchase, unfortunately there is not much background on it other than vintage? Was just wondering if anyone has seen something similar as I am not sure of age, or origin( French perhaps ). it is about 12 inches in diameter and wooden. thnx for looking.

hosman321

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Re: Vintage/Antique Sundial
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2011, 04:51:13 am »
Is that written in Latin? If so, it's very old and probably a fortune. Or, it's a reproduction and not worth much except as a decoration. Do they have more pictures available?

hosman321

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Re: Vintage/Antique Sundial
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2011, 04:52:29 am »
Oh, it's astrological names. Duh. I don't know, it's out of my realm!

mariok54

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Re: Vintage/Antique Sundial
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2011, 05:30:24 am »
How exactly does it work as a sun dial? What casts a shadow?

Looks attractive enough, but hard to tell if it has any age at all.

sapphire

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Re: Vintage/Antique Sundial
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2011, 08:49:59 am »
A little bit to explain 'what' it is .......but have yet to find anything relating to it's age

Ligne de Foi.....Line of Faith or Lubber Line,

"The heading of a mobile is the direction in which it is directed (or in the case of a ship, the direction pointed his bow). This is the angle in degrees (0 to 360 degrees) in the direction of clockwise, between its line of faith (its longitudinal axis) and the north. This angle is measured using a compass , a compass, magnetic or gyro."

http://www.flickr.com/photos/takomabibelot/3347442219/

French Nocturnal & Sundial, ca. 1600 (Oxford University Museum of the History of Science, UK)





sapphire

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Re: Vintage/Antique Sundial
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2011, 08:58:26 am »
And a wee bit more on how it was used.....

"Until clocks were mass produced, the nocturnal navigational tool was used to tell time.  It was created in 1272 and used until the late 1800's. "

A reproduction as a geocoin.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Nocturnal-Navigation-Geocoin-Antique-Bronze-Functional-/370482883436#ht_588wt_899

sapphire

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Re: Vintage/Antique Sundial
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2011, 09:02:58 am »
And some more.......... ;)


"The nocturnal navigational tool stood the test of time. Its purpose is to tell time at night so you can gain a more accurate latitude and longitude reading. The first written evidence of a nocturnal was discovered in the year 1272. It was refined in the 1500s to tell more accurate time and was used well in to the late 1800s and partially used into the early 1900s. Two disadvantages of the Nocturnal is it can only be used at night, and only when the pole star Polaris and either of the dippers are visible. However, it also had a great advantage since it can be used at night when a sundial could not be used. The nocturnal can only be used in the northern hemisphere unless you know how to triangulate the southern axis point and align the correct stars, but the deviation scales can only be used in the Northern Hemisphere. Using a nocturnal in conjunction with a quadrant will yield a more accurate latitude reading. The use of a planisphere is most helpful to find the correct stars to use.
 
Even though mechanical clocks have been around for several centuries, they could not keep accurate time on a ship that is pitching and rolling on the ocean waves. When an accurate chronometer good enough to be used at sea was invented and after it was able to be massed produced is when the nocturnal finally became obsolete.
 
More sophisticated nocturnals also listed tide charts and deviation gauges on its surfaces.

Design:

The early nocturnals were made of wood and later made in brass. They were approximately 7" to 10" in diameter plus the length of the handle and arm. The large circle, that has the handle attached to it, lists the days and months. The center rotating disk has the time. The arm has a notch on one edge of it so you know to use the opposite edge for lining it up with the stars. Both the center circle and arm rotate on an arbor which is hollowed out to use it as a sight."
 

sapphire

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Re: Vintage/Antique Sundial
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2011, 09:22:11 am »
It's actually called a nocturnal !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocturnal_(instrument)

sapphire

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Re: Vintage/Antique Sundial
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2011, 09:28:11 am »
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jerub-baal/178108663/in/photostream/

Nocturnal ca 1750 1 England boxwood copper alloy

I think you would have to have hands on experience with it to examine construction and wear to give any kind of an age estimate......or possibly some extremely good, close up shots.

talesofthesevenseas

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Re: Vintage/Antique Sundial
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2011, 12:43:05 pm »
I'm not clear what the claim is of the seller you are considering buying from. Do they claim this is an antique or a vintage reproduction, or are they unsure? It is beautiful regardless, but there would be an enormous difference in price between the real thing and a repro.
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sapphire

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Re: Vintage/Antique Sundial
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2011, 07:53:55 pm »
Have yet to find an 'old' one for sale. Other than a few references and those couple of examples of very old ones the only others I've come across are modern reproductions as geocoins which are obviously symbolic. I did come across one modern day one for sale, but it was obviously 'new' looking. If I remember correctly both it and the geocoins , as well as the one in the last picture (Peabody Essex Museum), have the names of the months, where as the example in the Oxford Museum listed as French 1600 bears the astrological signs.

Personally I would think this very hard to date without knowledgeable assistance, as there are few examples. Or if you could find an individual or group dedicated to ancient mariner's tools.

waywardangler

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Re: Vintage/Antique Sundial
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2011, 08:52:19 pm »
I just do not see the wear that should be there for something that old.  I would expect the pointer especially to have a lot of wear where it was handled.  I think this is a newer repro but then I am not there to examine it in person.

mariok54

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Re: Vintage/Antique Sundial
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2011, 12:41:02 am »
It's difficult to see, but is that a Lot Number on it? Did you photograph it personally?

khunn

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Re: Vintage/Antique Sundial
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2011, 10:58:08 am »
looked interesting so I took a pic of the auction preview. selling as vintage sundial( although thanks to you guys I know it is something other ), but I was questioning the age( newer or older )as I have not been able to locate similar reproductions?. If I am able to purchase,it is a no loss situation. I like it enough to keep, but if it turns out to be older then I could sell/keep. thnx.

talesofthesevenseas

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Re: Vintage/Antique Sundial
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2011, 11:58:34 am »
"Vintage" could mean it is a used reproduction. If they aren't calling it antique, I would assume it to be a repro.
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