Author Topic: Unusual Antique  (Read 8629 times)

redbird458

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Unusual Antique
« on: July 09, 2011, 10:34:48 am »
I came in possession of an antique taxidermy sea turtle, that I don't know much about. The only thing I know is they are endangered and it is legal to own or sell if the piece can be dated before 1977. I know for a fact that the piece was picked up in the far east in the early 1900's. I however have no documentation or proof that says it is that old. Does anyone know if and how taxidermy can be dated so I can prove it is legal? I am looking to sell this piece, if anyone has any information on taxidermy turtles or what price this should be at please help!! Thanks for looking!

mart

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Re: Unusual Antique
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2011, 10:50:42 am »
Try a museum !!  They usually have experts that can date it !!

waywardangler

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Re: Unusual Antique
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2011, 11:32:40 am »
If you do not have documentation to date it before 1977, do not even attempt to sell it. You do not want the Feds coming after you. I think you should donate it to a school, museum, or some non-profit for display, then you can rest easy at night.

I do not think that there is a museum in the country that will date this to make it legal to sell because then they would be on the hook with federal authorities. I do not think you can even date it except maybe by saying the taxidermy style is typical of the following years ___________. What would stop some shady taxidermist from using "old" techniques to sell endangered species? I do not think it can be done legally or morally. JMO.

Some things are best left alone and some rocks are best left unturned.

redbird458

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Re: Unusual Antique
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2011, 12:42:29 pm »
I agree with you Wayward. The last thing I want to do is get in trouble or do something morally unethical with it. It is a great piece and I would love to have it in a museum or someplace where people can actually enjoy it.

mart

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Re: Unusual Antique
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2011, 12:47:25 pm »
Don`t museums check items donated to them to make sure that does not happen ??

KC

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Re: Unusual Antique
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2011, 01:52:28 pm »
It is really hard to date pieces from overseas - especially if there is no marking or documentation.  In the US they generally mark in an inconspicuous way to prove compliance to the law.  (Even dated photos with items can help to document items.)

Just like any antique....it has to be 100 years or more of age in order to be an antique.  In order to comply with US law the item has to have been imported before

More information is noted in the Protected Species Act, Section 10 (h)
"(h) CERTAIN ANTIQUE ARTICLES.-
(1) Sections 4(d), 9(a), and 9(c) do not apply to any article which-
(A) is not less than 100 years of age;
(B) is composed in whole or in part of any endangered species or threatened species
listed under section 4;
(C) has not been repaired or modified with any Dart of any such species on or after
the date of the enactment of this Act; and
(D) is entered at a port designated under paragraph (3).
(2) Any person who wishes to import an article under the exception provided by this subsection
shall submit to the customs officer concerned at the time of entry of the article such
documentation as the Secretary of the Treasury, after consultation with the Secretary of the
Interior, shall by regulation require as being necessary to establish that the article meets the
requirements set forth in paragraph (1) (A), (B), and (C).
(3) The Secretary of the Treasury, after consultation with the Secretary of the Interior, shall
designate one port within each customs region at which articles described in paragraph (1) (A),
(B), and (C) must be entered into the customs territory of the United States.
(4) Any person who imported, after December 27, 1973, and on or before the date of the
enactment of the Endangered Species Act Amendments of 1978, any article described in
paragraph (1) which-
(A) was not repaired or modified after the date of importation with any part of any
endangered species or threatened species listed under section 4;
(B) was forfeited to the United States before such date of the enactment, or is subject
to forfeiture to the United States on such date of enactment, pursuant to the
assessment of a civil penalty under section 11; and
(C) is in the custody of the United States on such date of enactment; may, before the
close of the one-year period beginning on such date of enactment make application to
the Secretary for return of the article. Application shall be made in such form and
manner, and contain such documentation, as the Secretary prescribes. If on the basis
of any such application which is timely filed, the Secretary is satisfied that the
requirements of this paragraph are met with respect to the article concerned, the
Secretary shall return the article to the applicant and the importation of such article
shall, on and after the date of return, be deemed to be a lawful importation under this
Act."
I'm from the South - but please don't mistake my Southern Manners/Accent/Charm as a weakness!

KC

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Re: Unusual Antique
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2011, 02:05:08 pm »
Taxidermy law in the UK
http://www.taxidermylaw.co.uk/trade/auction.cfm

Taxidermy law in the US is complex...this site may help...but note their warning on their site...

"No sale of endangered species may be consummated in foreign or interstate markets until a permit has been obtained from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service."  "Title 16 United States Code 1538 (d) and Title 50, Code of Federal Regulations Part 13 and 14, C.I.T.E.S (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) and the laws of the State of Texas."
http://zebrarug.com/about_wildlife_etc640.htm#disclaimer640
I'm from the South - but please don't mistake my Southern Manners/Accent/Charm as a weakness!

mart

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Re: Unusual Antique
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2011, 02:51:36 pm »
Can you take a side view of the turtles head ?? I am trying to find the type it is !!  I am thinking Hawksbill Sea turtle but cannot tell for sure !!

redbird458

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Re: Unusual Antique
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2011, 04:42:29 pm »
Side view pics.

redbird458

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Re: Unusual Antique
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2011, 04:46:02 pm »
Great idea Mart! I didn't even think of that. I will try and identify it too.

hosman321

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Re: Unusual Antique
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2011, 05:05:37 pm »
What a beautiful creature. It does looks like a Hawksbill from the small amount of research I did. Wikipedia gives a great detailed description that you can compare yours to. Unfortunately, with no documentation, the value is $0. It is not only endangered, it is critically endangered. It would be illegal to sell it and the consequences are not worth even trying. You'll have to keep it or donate it somewhere.

redbird458

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Re: Unusual Antique
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2011, 05:40:01 pm »
Hypothetically if I had the Information that says it is legal to be sold and from the early 1900's. How much would a piece like this be worth? I personally have no idea because I have never seen anything like it.

hosman321

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Re: Unusual Antique
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2011, 05:55:49 pm »
That's a good question, I was looking on ebay for other taxidermy turtles and they bring anywhere from $20-$400 depending on the species. I have no idea if this would be worth way more or way less because it is endangered. I'll look around a bit more to see if I can find any that had paperwork with them.

hosman321

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Re: Unusual Antique
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2011, 05:59:25 pm »
Well, I did find one but I'm not going to post the link because it was clearly illegal to sell without any paperwork. But it sold for $170.00.


If you can find this book in a library or somewhere, it should have a price.
http://www.carters.com.au/index.cfm/item/67526-a-large-taxidermied-hawksbill-turtle/

hosman321

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Re: Unusual Antique
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2011, 06:05:20 pm »
I have no idea if this is true or not, you may even ask an attorney or Fish and Wildlife in your area. Someone on here said it can be sold within your state. But DO NOT trust it until you speak to a professional!
http://www.taxidermy.net/forums/ReptileArticles/05/051B6C3EC0.html