Author Topic: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?  (Read 4362 times)

KevinM

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What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« on: August 07, 2011, 07:51:06 pm »
Here's my latest $2 thrift store purchase. At the price I just had to buy it because the "What Ifs" were setting in even though I thought for sure it wasn't real, but I said, what the heck, even if it's a replica it looks nice for the price. I guess it could be real and not a replica but just made to look old.

What I thought it could be when I picked it up was a replica of a Mayan or Aztec ceramic figure sold to tourist. After getting it home and inspecting it further I noticed what looked like a slit on the very top used to either smoke from for use as a pipe or to blow into for use as a whistle. There is another opening in the back of the head and two more holes, one on each side of the feet. If you blow into the top I thought it could make a whistle sound but it doesn't and the air will come out the back of the neck and the two holes at the feet. So I now think it was some kind of pipe or even maybe something to put incense in and burn.

The figure is about 4 1/4 inches tall and about 2 1/2 inches wide at its widest point and made of clay. There is also dirt on it and inside of it (I know that's sometimes done to make something look old and original. That was my first Red Flag when I picked it up). The other thing is that the clay that was used seems to have gold metallic bits or flakes in it throughout the piece. If you look at the second large image (the back view) all the way to the left of the $2 price (about an inch to the left of the 2) towards the side of the figure you can see a large gold metallic piece. It seems that if it is a replica someone must have put in a lot of work to make it and I like it just the same for the price. For authentic pieces that look like this one what would be the value of it and what would be the approximate age?

Thanks,

Kevin

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flablitz

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Re: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2011, 08:15:06 pm »
Wish I could see better without the glares. Looks interesting though! :)

waywardangler

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Re: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2011, 08:27:09 pm »
99.9% sure it is new.

ironlord1963

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Re: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2011, 08:29:12 pm »
    Very Cool item for sure.  Looks old to me, but some of those traditional Artist in Mexico do pretty good jobs at making thing look old.  But I would have to say that this feels and looks old from the shots on the screen.  Not sure what else to add to help, just thought this is a really cool looking piece, thanks for posting it, and looking forward to see what comes out of this thread.

ironlord1963

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Re: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2011, 08:30:26 pm »
   Sounds like the Debate is on   :D  Guess I was typing at the same time as you wayward.

idaho1

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Re: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2011, 11:13:51 pm »
They look like home decore pieces . If they were real old you would usually find alot of ware on the bottom where it sits and other signs of being used & layed around over the years . I like that kinda stuff myself .

mart

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Re: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2011, 04:58:53 am »
Has the appearance of having been spray painted gold at one time !! Old gold spray paint will leave those imbedded flecks and will darken over time !! Can`t really tell from the pics !!   It does look like a replica though !!

KevinM

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Re: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2011, 08:49:10 am »
The figure has not been painted gold or any other color at all. What you're seeing is brown dirt or clay in the crevices of it. I've included 6 more larger images of it below, you may have to open your browser all the way to see all 6 of the images or use the scroll bar under the last set of images. You may see some tiny white specs in the images, that's dust or tiny chips in the glass of the scanner, please ignore them.

The gold bits or flakes could be mica or some type of gold colored metal flakes which were already in the clay when the piece was made or found its way into the tiny pores of the figure over time. The dirt or clay that is in the crevices of the figure seems to have some of the gold colored particles too.

Thanks,

Kevin

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mart

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Re: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2011, 09:51:01 am »
Oh !! Well that explains what I see in the creases !!  My computer makes the color look dark gold !!

KC

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Re: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2011, 02:49:13 pm »
Agree that it looks"new" and not "old"! 
I'm from the South - but please don't mistake my Southern Manners/Accent/Charm as a weakness!

KevinM

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Re: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2011, 04:15:23 pm »
OK, here's what I now think, after looking around and doing some more research I think it may be a Pre-Columbian Blackware Hand Molded Flute or Whistle (Go easy on me everyone and just follow me on this for a minute :) ). When I try to blow into the flute the sound is blocked or distorted some because the inner chamber of the figure still has some dirt or clay in it. I think if the chamber was cleaned out it would play nicely.

I don't think it could be a pipe now since the larger hole is behind the back of the head of the figure and the 2 smaller holes are on the front just to the side of the feet which would put it in a good place for the middle fingers to access them. I'm also beginning to think it could be an original since I haven't found any reason to think otherwise yet (And I'm the first to think it's new made to look old, perhaps I've been looking at it too long).

The figure does show the proper wear in the right places if you were to play it while holding it in both hands. When you hold it with both thumbs lined up under one another beneath it there seems to be two slight indents where the thumbs would hold onto the figure. At the same time while holding both middle fingers over the 2 holes and both index fingers holding the arms then blowing into the top the flute can be played.

There is some slight wear to the hole to the right of the figures right foot which seems to have been preferred for letting the air out then stopped and repeated while the flute was played. While at the same time the middle finger on the left hole may not have been used as often since there is little wear (this may also indicate that whoever played it was right handed). There is also some wear on both arms where the index fingers would be holding the figure and some slight wear at the top of the piece and head band area where one would blow into it.

So here's my analysis.

What is it? A Pre-Columbian Blackware Hand Molded Figure (If it's not it sure looks like one).

What is it used for? It's used as a Flute or a Whistle.

Is it real? I think it's real, haven't found any pieces like it or anything to dis-credit the figure and it does show some wear.

What's the Value? If it were real, judging from some of the other Pre-Columbian Flute/Whistle pieces I've seen I would estimate it's value based on a Pre-Columbian age and condition to be in the neighborhood of $350, it could go higher.  If it's not real the value would be it's a conversation piece, it's cool, you could use it as a dog whistle, or you could get in the neighborhood of $2, it could go higher. :)

Kevin

waywardangler

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Re: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2011, 06:25:58 pm »
500 years old?  Take it to an antiquities expert and they will tell you whether it is pre-Columbian or not.
I am betting not but there is that .1% still open.

ironlord1963

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Re: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2011, 07:58:04 pm »
   So what you have is a " Ocarina "  Which I believe is a south American instrument in orgin.  I had a couple many years back, I remember 4 holes, but the concept would be the same.  I still side on the old side myself personnally, but more along the maybe 100 years.  But without a real professsional I think we would all be guessing.  Like the others had said that some of the traditional Artist of any area, has got or rather are very good at making it look old.   I would seem almost impossible to find a 500 year old item at a thrift shop for sure, heck it is hard to get something over 50  :D but anything is possible.  I still like it overall and would look great on one of my shelves  ;)

hosman321

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Re: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2011, 08:04:19 pm »
I agree that an expert is in order on this one. It's just too specialized an item to determine the age through photographs. Also, the people making reproductions these days will literally bury their items in the ground, sometimes for months to get a good amount of "age" and gunk onto their fake. They do this because it is very convincing to newbies like you and I. If you are really sure that it could be that old, then it is worth paying a small fee to an expert. I don't think anybody on the forum (as lovely as you all are) is an expert in pre-columbian artifacts. Good luck, would be awesome if you did find a teasure at that price. :)

sapphire

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Re: What Is It, What Is It Used For And Is It Real?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2011, 10:51:59 pm »
I wish they had more pics showing different views on this

http://www.photaki.com/picture-pre-columbian-statuette-ocarina-indian-instrument_108748.htm


A modern example of the instrument......

http://ceramicartsdaily.org/education/making-sounds-with-clay/


Definitely you need someone knowledgeable in pre columbian to both date and verify........I think the idea of an ocarina is likely bang on, now just 'when'