Need help with a Hummel: Two different TMKs? (pics inside)

[Government Issue]

Hey all!

I just joined the forum here; it sure is nice around here from what i've looked at so far. This is exciting to have all new material to read!

Anyways down to the business. I recently acquired this Hummel here #89/1 Little Cellist. Seems pretty straight forward but there are two trademarks on the bottom of this figure. There is a TMK 1 (crown) embossed into the bottom of the base and then there is a TMK 2 (full bee) also stamped on the bottom. I have seen double crowns before, but never have I seen two different TMKs on the same item.


Could someone maybe help me with some information here? I can't find another one like it to even determine a value.

[mart]

At least this gives you a timeline !!


Stylized Bee
From 1960 to 1972, the Stylized Bee (trademark #3) was marked on all Goebel figurines. The Stylized Bee appeared in three forms. The Large Stylized Bee, used through 1963, says “W. Germany” to the right of the bottom of the V. Sometimes found within an incised circle, this mark may be blue or black. The bee's wings are now parallel with the top edges of the V. The Small Stylized Bee, used from 1960 to 1972, is usually in blue. “W. Germany” is centered beneath the bee and the V. It is also known as the “One Line” mark. The third Stylized Bee mark, also known as the 'three line mark' is referred to as Trademark #4, despite its similarities to Trademark 3. It uses the same V and bee as the others, but has three lines of text beside the mark, usually in blue. From 1969 to 1972, some pieces were also stamped with the Crown mark (trademark #1), in addition to the more current trademark designs.

[Government Issue]

"From 1969 to 1972, some pieces were also stamped with the Crown mark (trademark #1), in addition to the more current trademark designs."

That seems pretty interesting but that would be during the time of trademark #3 - #4 which this piece does not show. The piece that is stamped with the blue ink is actually trademark #2 which is 1950 - 1959 which is ten years before they began stamping the crown mark in conjunction with the trademark 3 - 4.

My piece seems to date somewhere between the crown trademark #1 1935 - 1949 and the full bee trademark #2 1950 - 1959.

This just makes things even more confusing!

[wendy177]

A few questions first is your piece incised (pressed in) with  a facsimile  M.I. Hummel signature? and what is exact size of your figure this will also help in placing a value on your piece.  You are correct that the crow with the W over G was used 1935-1949 but the full bee mark was  used 1950-1959 so your piece if a M. I. Hummel was produced during 1950-1959 as the full bee was not used prior to that time frame. Many overlapping and combinations of marks coupled with conflicting copyright dates indicate the futility of reading to much meaning and accuracy into the shorthand history on the bottom of some figurines. all marks & size of your figurine will tell the complete story.

[mart]

Also,, does your piece have only the word Germany rather than W. Germany ?? And does it have the Goebel name on it ?? Or how is it identified ??

[Government Issue]

A few questions first is your piece incised (pressed in) with  a facsimile  M.I. Hummel signature? and what is exact size of your figure this will also help in placing a value on your piece.  You are correct that the crow with the W over G was used 1935-1949 but the full bee mark was  used 1950-1959 so your piece if a M. I. Hummel was produced during 1950-1959 as the full bee was not used prior to that time frame. Many overlapping and combinations of marks coupled with conflicting copyright dates indicate the futility of reading to much meaning and accuracy into the shorthand history on the bottom of some figurines. all marks & size of your figurine will tell the complete story.

I am going to try to answer all these questions:

is your piece incised (pressed in) with  a facsimile  M.I. Hummel signature? No it is not.
what is exact size of your figure? It stands 6" tall

Also,, does your piece have only the word Germany rather than W. Germany ?? And does it have the Goebel name on it ?? Or how is it identified ??

It has only the word Germany. There is no Goebel name on it. I identified it by its trademarks and styles.

[wendy177]

 A genuine M.I. Hummel figurine must have a facsimile signature incised somwhere on the figure or edge of the base. Unless this incised facsimile signature is on the figurine, it is probably not a genuine M.I. Hummel Figurine. Although the W. Goebel Company did vary many of their other marks, collectors can be grateful that in the application of the facsimile signature they were both consistent and persistent. Some of the very small designs only two or three inches high are difficult to mark so that the resulting signature is indistinct on some. 

[Government Issue]

A genuine M.I. Hummel figurine must have a facsimile signature incised somwhere on the figure or edge of the base. Unless this incised facsimile signature is on the figurine, it is probably not a genuine M.I. Hummel Figurine. Although the W. Goebel Company did vary many of their other marks, collectors can be grateful that in the application of the facsimile signature they were both consistent and persistent. Some of the very small designs only two or three inches high are difficult to mark so that the resulting signature is indistinct on some. 

CORRECTION: I'm an idiot and I missed it. There is indeed an M.I. Hummel signature! Here is a picture of the signature.

.


So I think that this puts us back to square one. I still don't know why I have two TMKs (1 + 2) from different years hah. But it is a genuine Hummel.

[mart]

According to the site I read and double checked with others,, the double marks occured when the figurine was Made at the end of one period but not painted or fired till after the transition !!  It also said that when double marks occur they are appraised as the latter mark. So yours would be mark #2 for valuation. Found one like yours with both marks on figurinesonline for sale at $237.50 but that was in mint condition !! Yours has a few chips so you have to take that into consideration. Collectors want mint condition !! Only thing I really couldn`t find was why yours had only the word Germany when that wasn`t used till 91 except in conjunction with the Goebel mark !! Before that it was W. Germany !!  At least that is what I think it said,, I read so much I could be wrong on that !!

[Government Issue]

According to the site I read and double checked with others,, the double marks occured when the figurine was Made at the end of one period but not painted or fired till after the transition !!  It also said that when double marks occur they are appraised as the latter mark. So yours would be mark #2 for valuation. Found one like yours with both marks on figurinesonline for sale at $237.50 but that was in mint condition !! Yours has a few chips so you have to take that into consideration. Collectors want mint condition !! Only thing I really couldn`t find was why yours had only the word Germany when that wasn`t used till 91 except in conjunction with the Goebel mark !! Before that it was W. Germany !!  At least that is what I think it said,, I read so much I could be wrong on that !!

This is awesome information! This answers some questions, could you provide me with the link where you read this?

I just now need to track down and find out why it only says Germany as opposed to W. Germany!

[mart]

The price was at www.figurinesonline .com and I searched their site for "hummel figurine 89/1" and I will have to find the other again but I think it was a site for identifying fake marks !!  I will go back and see if I can find it !!  I just did a general google search on IDing fake Hummel marks and the info was on a site that showed on the first page !! Figured I should eliminate the fakes first, since I do not know Hummels well !!

I assumed that the W. was dropped after the war and before the mark changed to the next version as they really were not too concerned with getting them all perfect as you can see from your piece !!  According to several of the sites there are quite a few variations in the marks. But that signature is one thing that it has to have !!  You will like the site I found as it has several of the really rare Hummels that are a few thousand to about ten thousand !! I`d like to find one of those !!!

[wendy177]

It is only worth what someone is willing to pay and the market has not been good for hummels. Have spoken with a very well known auction house and they stated younger collectors are just not interested,to many well kept collections around and so on, they do not expect the market to return. Also many dealers scooped up hummels by the hundreds when news that Goebel  was closing thinking prices would skyrocket only to find the company was sold  and will continue to produce product with original molds and has rehired many artisans who worked for Goebel. thus the flood of hummels being dumped in the sellers market. Mart the one you mentioned  "Found one like yours with both marks on figurinesonline for sale at $237.50 but that was in mint condition !!" I can guess has not sold and I would bet it will not sell at that price. This is not great news as I have an old collection of over 70 Hummels and will box them for my way future generations maybe in another 100 years prices will be way up but now NO .  I would value your piece at $25.00 if you want it to sell and maybe not even then. Sorry  

[mart]

You are right Wendy,, not too many die hard collectors left !! I think they still do fair in the UK but not so great here !!  For a more realistic value,, I would check ebay and see what actually sells !!  There are a few collector groups that might be worth checking out !!

[ironlord1963]

   Wendy is correct about the market.  Just go look at Ebay.  112 pages of Hummels, then in the completed Under about 20% actually sell.  Even a few of yours are there, 3 has sold recently for just over $20.00.   Let me get that page and post it for you.


http://completed.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=hummel+%2389%2F1+Little+Cellist&_sacat=0&_sop=15&LH_Complete=1&_odkw=hummel+Cello&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

[Government Issue]

I am aware of this downward trend unfortunately! Thank you so much for all your assistance, this answered a lot of questions. There are still a lot questions outstanding but those will get taken care of i'm sure eventually! I will be frequenting here quite often!