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Author Topic: Lesson learned. :/  (Read 6888 times)

hosman321

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Lesson learned. :/
« on: August 22, 2011, 10:18:39 pm »
I decided I would like to start collecting pre-1800 sterling silver flatware, specifically Hester Bateman pieces. So, I purchased a Bateman salt spoon. I thought it was too good to be true (alarm bells!), it had a Buy it Now price of about $40, which was considerably less than the other Bateman items on ebay. I got it, looked it over for about 1 whole minute  ::) and left positive feedback. A few minutes later I noticed that the spoon has obviously been broken in half and repaired at some point, which drops the value down to pretty much melt value. Being the newbie I am, I didn't know any better. I am still glad to have a spoon that old but I definitely didn't start my collection on the right foot. DON'T leave positive feedback until you look for damage! Use a loupe! The seller knew that the item had significant repair, they knew what they were doing pricing it cheap and didn't disclose the damage. Very frustrating.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 10:21:17 pm by hosman321 »
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Oceans64

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Re: Lesson learned. :/
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2011, 07:31:54 am »
Something like that I might be tempted to return....  Positive feedback aside.  If the seller knew about the damage (as you feel they did) then IMO it is close to fraud and should not be rewarded. 

That kind of thing gets my ire up!!! 
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"In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these." — Paul Harvey

hosman321

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Re: Lesson learned. :/
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2011, 07:11:39 pm »
They look for suckers like me, newbies who don't know any better. They knew it was repaired, they deal in sterling silver flatware and it was listed as Buy it Now at $40.00 whereas their others were auctions. Can you even return an item after you have left positive feedback? I think I will just keep it. I have my eye on another one that ends in about an hour. It is also listed fairly inexpensively at $59.99 but if I win it, I will look that dang thing over REALLY good. I bet someone with a sniper will snag it though. I'm not going over $59.99.
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hosman321

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Re: Lesson learned. :/
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2011, 07:44:20 pm »
Wow, I actually won it.  :P
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ironlord1963

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Re: Lesson learned. :/
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2011, 07:45:33 pm »
    Way to go Hosman Save the Silver.  Right now with the value of high we are in the middle of another great melt down,  This is the third in the last 100 years, what is left will be of great historical value.  I have a really cool old spoon, that I keep wanting to post, but fear for it life, If I remember correct it is mid 1800's with english hallmarks, I picked up a few years back for $10.00.   I just wanted to say good for you buying silver to save.
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ironlord1963

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Re: Lesson learned. :/
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2011, 07:46:28 pm »
Cool would really love to see this one, maybe I go take of pic of my little spoon for a bit of show and tell.  Congrats
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hosman321

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Re: Lesson learned. :/
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2011, 07:51:41 pm »
I like silver because it is a good investment and is actually useable. The salt spoon was my first silver piece and I feel like I am getting hooked! I would love to see yours ironlord! Here's the one I just won. I think it's 1789 rather than 1790. I agree about the historical value. As time goes on, more and more will be melted down.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/140593903219?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 07:55:17 pm by hosman321 »
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ironlord1963

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Re: Lesson learned. :/
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2011, 08:20:10 pm »
Pretty cool, Looks like a fine piece of history for sure, two part spoons very hard to find.  I thought the weight was a bit light though, half ounce?   must be made really thin.   Are you finding many spoons that date this early?   Anyway, just took a few pics of my little salt spoon, have not looked into it for some time and forgot the hallmarks, I think it was London 185?.  It is 4 1/2" Long and weighs 1.1 Oz. 
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hosman321

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Re: Lesson learned. :/
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2011, 08:26:30 pm »
Oh, how beautiful! I believe those are called "picture back" spoons because of the design on the back. It is very unique. I am really confused about the date marks. It looks like it has the uncrowned leopard (after 1822) but the "U" looks like the 1815 "U". I have a lot to learn. :)

http://www.925-1000.com/british_marks.html

There's still quite a bit of 1700s and even 1600s silver flatware. Price depends on the maker. American stuff from the 1700s goes for the most because it is rarer. The Hester Bateman stuff is kind of in the middle. Not really rare but not really common. She was a woman silversmith in London from 1761-1790. Her life intriques me and I really want more of her stuff. :)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 08:34:50 pm by hosman321 »
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hosman321

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Re: Lesson learned. :/
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2011, 08:40:40 pm »
Actually, I think it may be the 1835 "u".
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ironlord1963

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Re: Lesson learned. :/
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2011, 08:48:20 pm »
    Cool that would be better the 1850's for sure, These spoons for sure have History.  Think of the age, only the rich or elite would of had them, and these was used daliy, Just to think of the elegant meals these are seen.
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hosman321

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Re: Lesson learned. :/
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2011, 01:14:05 am »
That's what I think of ironlord, oh the dinner conversations they must have seen! I imagine the fancy dresses the ladies were wearing, too. :)
Perhaps someone can edumacate me a bit about these. What is an overmark? How does this seller know that these are Hester Bateman spoons if there is no sign of her mark? ???
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-TEA-SP-HESTER-BATEMAN-STERLING-LONDON-1793-/170647877269?pt=Antiques_Silver&hash=item27bb67f695
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sapphire

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Re: Lesson learned. :/
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2011, 09:12:39 am »
hosman, a brief explanation on 'overmarks'

http://www.guernsey-society.org.uk/donkipedia/index.php5?title=Biographies_of_silver_makers#Overmarks

"The biographies which follow have been expanded beyond the usual range of goldsmiths normally given in such accounts, to include those men, predominantly retailers, who seem likely to have overmarked imported goods, but whose marks have not been reported. In most instances, they would not have been observed, because they would normally have been overstruck on the marks of the makers of Victorian or Edwardian spoons and forks imported from England."

.........Followed by maker's biographies.
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hosman321

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Re: Lesson learned. :/
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2011, 12:51:06 am »
Thank you Sapphire! If I understand correctly, they know the original silversmith just by the shape of the original mark? That seems a little iffy because most marks were just square or rectagular. How would they know it was Hester Bateman? Sorry, just trying to figure this all out. ;)
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sapphire

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Re: Lesson learned. :/
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2011, 05:25:00 am »
Well, this makes sense ....... both marks are showing

http://www.silvercollection.it/englishsilvermarksXGGGG.html

GG
George Gray struck over Peter and Anne Bateman
London 1795 hallmark

But if you look at the spoons in the ebay listing there doesn't appear to be any sign of another mark.

And the seller is listing as a Hester Bateman, but giving the date it was overmarked by George Gray as 1793........Hester's last mark was used until 1790, so even if this was hers would there be that much of a gap? The George Gray over Peter and Anne falls in the correct time frame.  The mark of Peter and Anne was larger than that of Hester, which would account for it not totally 'disappearing'........but then how does one prove overmark if there is no indication of a previous mark?? 

It's too early in the morning for my head to get around this  ::)
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