Author Topic: a scarab made of turquoise  (Read 4797 times)

pgh412guy

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a scarab made of turquoise
« on: October 18, 2011, 01:41:11 pm »
hi i found this in a attic i was insulating. it looks old and maybe was made into a necklace pendant at some point. but its a scarab made out of what i think is turquoise... whatever its made of is hard, like a rock... not wood. but its scarab shaped with a hole going through it from the top to the bottom with some hieroglyphics on the back. its a small piece prob about 2 inches by 1 inch big.i looked up some pendants but nothing really looks like this one all the ones i found were made of metal! any info would be great thank you.

talesofthesevenseas

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Re: a scarab made of turquoise
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2011, 04:22:06 pm »
I can help you on this one.

The scarab is not turquoise, it is either lapis lazuli (stone) or it is faience (glazed ceramic paste) both are traditional materials for these in Egypt. You are right, the setting it is in looks old. Prior to Egyptian independence, it was legal to take ancient antiquities out of Egypt, so there are lots that came over to the US and Europe during the late 1800's and through the first part of the century. Graves were desecrated and ancient artifacts were made into tourist jewelry. I have some of these at home too and you can get them on Ebay quite easily. I recognize a couple of the heiroglyphs. That first one with vertical lines sitting on horizontal lines I believe is a Senet board. Senet was an ancient Egyptian board game, that was kind of like chess or checkers. The one on the lower right is the feather of Ma'at, or the feather of truth. The heart of a deceased person was weighed against the feather of truth. A person whose heart was "light" or free of heavy burdens of guilt, would move on to the afterlife. A person whose heart was burdened by guilt and bad deeds was devoured by a creature (kind of a monster made of several animals)

Now the big question- Is it ancient or is it a modern tourist item. The setting makes me think there is a good chance this could be real, because they have not done that kind of setting on tourist pieces in many, many years and I think there is a chance that yours is an ancient scarab that was mounted in the twenties or thereabouts. The other thing that this has going for it is that I can recognize a couple of the heiroglyphs. I cannot read them though, I do not have that level of expertise. What really intrigues me is that there are some under the silver mounting, which to me says that it was added later, unlike a piece made to go into a mounting.

The hard part about antiquities is that they are frequently faked. Sometimes they are easy to spot and other times they are not. Yours has all the things above telling me that it is authentic. Not terribly valuable, but very cool and very ancient nonetheless. The other thing to consider is that back in the time when that mounting was put on, it was legal to get these. There would not have been a big market for fakes like this, which would not have brought a lot of cash.

I would contact Lisa Swappach-Shirriff, who is the curator of the Rosicrucian Egyptian Museum in San Jose, CA. She is a very nice lady, I have met her. See if you can show her your photos. Best of luck and congrats on a neat find!

http://www.rosicrucianegyptianmuseum.org/contact
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snowflake

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Re: a scarab made of turquoise
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2011, 04:40:39 pm »
Very impressive, Tails. How interesting! My Gran was a member of the Rosicrucian's. I have all her books and symbol books. I imagine it would take me ages to find the ones here since I have no clue what they are to find them easily.

What a great find, pgh. Please let us know what comes of this.

KC

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Re: a scarab made of turquoise
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2011, 05:32:50 pm »
Ihad heard this before about the older rings....and just wanted to pass it on....took me awhile to find this.....

Also, Talesof....I had a friend/archaelogist who brought back some items many, many years back that were made of steratite  (Egyptian soapstone)

http://www.adin.be/en/2ndpage.asp?dtn=09121-4278&titel=Typical%20Egyptian%20scarab%20ring%20with%20cartouched%20scarab%20set%20in%20golden%20swivel%20ring
"The ring is a stirrup-shaped hoop with flattened pierced ends and the scarab attached in such way so that the scarab can revolve when not worn on a finger, with the underside (engraved with the name or device of the owner) turned up when to be used as a seal and the beetle side up when worn as an ornament."
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 05:38:12 pm by KC »
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talesofthesevenseas

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Re: a scarab made of turquoise
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2011, 06:01:59 pm »
If I am remembering correctly, soapstone is really soft and if you scratch it, it leaves a white mark on the surface like a bar of soap. I have a couple of Egyptian tourist statues made of soapstone somewhere in the back of a closet. KC am I remembering this correctly about soapstone?
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talesofthesevenseas

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Re: a scarab made of turquoise
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2011, 06:29:02 pm »
OK I'm gonna go out on a limb and attempt at a translation of the first set of characters at the top of your scarab. If I am correct reading from right to left it is "Amun-Ra" which is one of the most popular gods. Here goes: The feather of Ma'at is on the upper right and makes the "ah" sound. The senet board on the upper left is the "mn" or "mun" or "moon" sound and above the board is "Ra" in the form of a solar disk or sun.

I know this one because I have it on an ancient Egyptian ring which has been authenticated by several archaeologists. (I would show it to them every time I attended a lecture, LOL and I paid for a professional examination of this ring also. They all agreed it was authentic) The hieroglyphs on my ring read from right to left, "Hes nefer Amun-Ra" which means "High praise of Amun-Ra". The Ra solar disk is below the senet board in my ring, and above it in yours. Read my ring from right to left, the first symbol is a water jar pronounced "hes" and means praise. Next is a stringed musical instrument pronounced "nefer" which means good or beautiful. Next is the feather of Ma'at pronounced "ah", then the senet board "mn" and the solar disk "ra". "hes nefer amun-ra" now look at your Amun-Ra, it is the same as mine just with the Ra above instead of below.

I do not know what the lower hieroglyphs are and now that I recognize the Ma'at feather above, I think you've got something else below, as they are carved differently, so I'm going to correct myself on that.

Here is my ring, and we've about hit the limits of my translating ability, we got lucky that you have a very popular inscription that is pretty easy to spot. This is not a very clear picture, I'll take a better one when I get home:



« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 06:32:22 pm by talesofthesevenseas »
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talesofthesevenseas

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Re: a scarab made of turquoise
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2011, 06:50:00 pm »
You can read Amun-Ra in hieroglyphs here. Slightly different, this one is left to right and it has an identifier at the end, a seated god that isn't pronounced, but is telling you this is a god's name. Sometimes they use this, sometimes not. It's about half-way down the page on the left side:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun

Here's another Amun-Ra, reading left to right with the identifier:



Here you can see the name "Amun" and "Amun-Ra", this one goes left to right:



And here you can see at the bottom of the cartouche (that's the rope encircling a name) part of the name was "Amun" read right to left (feather of Ma'at "Ah sound plus the senet board "mn" sound)

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rockandrollrods

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Re: a scarab made of turquoise
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2011, 09:51:58 pm »
I'm actually going to the Rosicrucian Egyptian this weekend. My wife is quite the amateur Egyptologist and is really looking forward to it. I like that piece of yours too. If it's real, a very intriguing piece indeed.
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talesofthesevenseas

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Re: a scarab made of turquoise
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2011, 09:59:53 pm »
Here's a somewhat better photo of my ring. Small items are kinda tough with my camera. Do let us know what you find out about the ring. I don't have the expertise to say if it is authentic or not, but I do see a few things indicating that it might be, so it would be good to have someone take a look at your photos.

R&R I love the Rosicrucian Egyptian Museum! Be sure to take a look at the mummy of User Montu, and look at the x-rays of his leg. He is the only mummy known to have a corkscrew style pin holding his leg on.

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rockandrollrods

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Re: a scarab made of turquoise
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2011, 10:02:24 pm »
That's awesome! I've never been and am looking forward to it for sure! If they have any of these beetles there (a long shot, I know), I'll get some pictures.
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pgh412guy

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Re: a scarab made of turquoise
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2011, 10:37:07 pm »
thanks everybody for the response.i sent the curator of the museum a email with some pics so we will just have to wait and see. its def old and doesnt look to be a fake.i rubbed it on a glass table to see if it left a white line like you guys said if it was soapstone but it didnt it scratched the glass instead. but i would love to find out exactly where this piece came from, the age, and value so feel free to sued my pics if you have to so we can find out more about this piece and for now  we will have to wait and see.

KC

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Re: a scarab made of turquoise
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2011, 11:38:01 pm »
Talesof....it does have talc content...but don't let it fool you.  IT is used for heavy duty jobs/uses.  Not that easy to mark with it!  Temples, gravestones, sculptures have been made using it for thousands of years.  Soft enough to carve, yet firm/durable enough to last through time!  Lots of kitchen countertops are made out of it, ancient pots/pans, etc.......

It is many colors.  I have several pieces from RUssia that are gray, green, brown and black. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soapstone#Physical_characteristics_and_uses
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talesofthesevenseas

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Re: a scarab made of turquoise
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2011, 11:11:22 am »
R&RRods, be sure to take the tomb tour, it is really fun. Check out the mummified animals and be sure to stroll through the grounds as there is a lot to see outside the musuem too. It is the only Egyptian museum housed in a building with Egyptian architecture outside of Egypt. It really is a spectacular place. There are scarab beetles too!
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pgh412guy

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Re: a scarab made of turquoise
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2011, 06:29:44 pm »
well i tried to reach Lisa Swappach-Shirriff at the Rosicrucian Egyptian Museum via email and it turns out that she no longer works there.so they pointed me towards an appraiser who i emailed that said he couldn't help me at all(very awkwardly) so i guess for now itll stay a mystery where and when this is from until maybe i find someone to send it to or something to check it out.

rockandrollrods

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Re: a scarab made of turquoise
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2011, 08:35:24 pm »
Assuming I can get to the museum before it closes this weekend, I'll see what I can find out about it for you.
Take every price I say with a grain of salt...